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Brand Newbie here - working on a Land Speed Project (1.5L or less diesel).
by
Jetmugg
on 05 Jan, 2012 21:27
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It feels great to be here. I am working on a diesel truck project (actually an '84 Dodge Rampage) to run in the H/DT (1.5L or less Diesel Truck) class at Bonneville. I'm currently working on the chassis, but my mind is constantly racing (no pun intended) about the powerplant. This is not a high budget operation for me. Low-buck is crucial to get this program done without raising my wife's blood pressure too high.
Anyway, I need to build/buy a diesel engine displacing 1.5L or less, capable of propelling my Rampage up and over 105 mph over a 3 mile measured course on the Bonneville Salt Flats. 105 is the current record, set by a VW Rabbit pickup. My goal is to beat the existing record.
For the bottom end, I figure I will need a 1.6TD block with a 1.5L rotating assembly. I'm open for suggestions on the top half of the engine. It will be a turbocharged, intercooled setup to take full advantage of the rules.
A VW 5-speed manual trans will transfer the power to the wheels.
Some custom pump work will most likely be required, as will a bigger than stock turbo, and an oil cooler is in the plan as well.
One idea that continues to interest me is the "Franken" diesels, using the 1.6L TD bottom ends and the 1.9L IDI heads. I understand that the static compression is lowered with this setup, but that top-end power is good, and higher boost levels are usable. However, I'm still open for input as to whether a 1.5L bottom end will see any advantage to using the 1.9L IDI head. Will there be enough static compression to get the engine started? I have heard differing opinions about this combination, but so far no one has stepped up and said - "I've built a 1.5L Franken Diesel", and here's how it runs....
Please - let me hear your suggestions, keeping in mind that I don't have money to burn on a hyper-exotic set of parts.
Thank You,
Steve M.
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#1
by
ORCoaster
on 05 Jan, 2012 21:37
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Steve, welcome.
I think you need to look at that record holder a little closer. Go for the GVW of the Caddy and compare it to your Dodge. Dropping a 1.5L engine in is going to get you into the class but unless you cut weight heavy you aren't going to get top end like they did. You may very well be using the same transmission too.
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#2
by
Jetmugg
on 05 Jan, 2012 22:25
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The aerodynamics play a much bigger role than the static weight. It's not quite a 3 mile drag race, you get 2 miles to get up to speed, then you are measured over the 3rd mile. A lot of guys actually add weight to their vehicles for better traction on the salt. Both Rabbit Caddies and Rampages have a good history of LSR racing, as they are among the smallest vehicles that qualify as trucks.
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#3
by
RabbitJockey
on 06 Jan, 2012 07:34
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i dont think you would need much of an engine to get above 105. i would imagine a 1.5 with a turbo diesel setup added to it would easily beat that with out even turning up the boost assuming it was geared properly
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#4
by
rabbid79
on 06 Jan, 2012 08:40
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Very cool project. There are a lot of differences between the 1.6 and 1.5 engines, but of course the additional displacement comes from the 86.4 mm vs. 80.0 mm crank. If I were you, I'd find the best 1.6 long block (e.g. 12mm head bolts), and then toss the 80 mm crank in there. Obviously the connecting rods would also need to be replaced with longer/stronger. I'm not sure if the 1.5 rods would work, because I don't know if the piston pin height and diameter is the same between the 1.5 and 1.6 pistons.
Keeping the 1.6 head and using an 80.0 mm stroke should lower your stataic compression ratio from ~23:1 to ~21.3:1 as well. You could use hot air from a heat gun to help get the engine started for the race though, so lower compression ratios (i.e. 1.9 head) aren't out of the question either.
You probably want to scrap the TD intake manifold and use one from a gas application, like possibly from the Corrado 1.8 S/C engine. The TD intake isn't much of a breather.
Have you considered water/air intercooling with an ice box instead of a FMIC?
I've been wanting to do a Bonneville run myself, but with an Audi 5-cyl TD in a Porsche 924. One day...
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#5
by
theman53
on 06 Jan, 2012 09:30
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Welcome. I posted a ton on your vortex thread and all that still applies. There is a guy here by the name saurkraut ... I may have misspelled... I will link to. He is the one on here that used to play with the 1.5 and get it to really run. ROR and fatmobile had the 1.5 as well, but I think saurkraut was the only one with a 1.9 L head or atttempting to.
As said before 1.6 hydro block, aaz head, porting and swaintech coating. If the 1.9 gives you issues you can always get a 1.6 head and swap it back. "most" people running a 1.6 with 1.9 head say if you run the correct head gasket starting isn't an issue even in cold temps. Some have had a really smokey start, but it starts right up. If you are building it all from new it should be tight and not much problems starting. IDK how cold it is when racing there, but one guy on here claims to start his down to -14F. Probably runs rough and smokes like crazy but it starts. You should be fine.
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#6
by
Jetmugg
on 06 Jan, 2012 11:47
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Good feedback all around. TheMan53- yes, thank you for your input on both forums. I know that a lot of guys are members on both forums, and now I am also.javascript:void(0);
The good news about the weather is that it is generally warm to hot at Bonneville during Speed Week and World of Speed. One is in August, one in early October (I forget which is which at this time).
Right now, I don't have any of the engine parts. I want to learn as much as I can while keeping my eyes open for "good deals" on complete engines or key components.
Rabbid- I have investigated the compatibility of bottom end parts. As far as I know, there are no off-the-shelf rods that will allow using the 1.6 pistons with a 1.5 crank. The pin height is different. Custom rods are probably not in the budget, either. That means using the 1.5 crank, rods, and pistons as an assembly and living with the lower compression.
I definitely plan to run water/air intercooling, and possibly water/oil cooler as well. The plan is to have a tank of icewater in the bed of the truck to pump and circulate for cooling the air charge and possibly the oil.
I've been "into" Mercedes diesels for several years. At one point, I wanted to run a 190-series Mercedes using a 3.0L Mercedes turbodiesel at Bonneville. The main issue is that there is no separate category for diesel powered automobiles. (there is for diesel trucks). That means that with a 5-cyl Audi TD in a Porsche 924 (let's say 3.0L for arguments sake), that you would have to compete against blown gas sports coupes (turbo or supercharged 3.0L gasoline engines), or even worse, blown fuel sports cars (super or turbocharged 3.0L methanol engines), some of which can make a lot more power for less money than a diesel. Check the current record for F/Blown Gas Modified Sports Car (F engines are 3.0L or less). The record is held by Kahler's Porsche Service at just over 220 mph. VERY FAST for 3.0L or under. Where the existing record is over 200, the rules requirements mean a much more expensive build as well.
The diesel truck records (especially with the smaller engines) appear to be much more in-reach with respect to technology and dollars.
Back to the Franken-possibilities - is it a requirement to use a hydraulic block and head when building a "Franken", or does it make the job somehow easier?
Thanks again,
Steve.
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#7
by
Jetmugg
on 06 Jan, 2012 12:28
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I've been reading through the Saurkraut posts about the 1.5 TD / 1.9 head setup. Some promising information that I found very interesting was related to the rod and piston compatibility.
I haven't gotten to the bottom of it yet, but it looked like he was going to use a 1.5 crank with 1.9 rods, and 1.6TD pistons that would need to be "shortened" on the top side about 0.062". If that works, it will definitely open up more possibilities. I need to dig a little deeper into the Saurkraut archives to see if he got that combination to work.
Steve.
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#8
by
MJF
on 06 Jan, 2012 13:54
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1,5 crank has smaller rod journals, you can't use 1,9 rods.
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#9
by
Jetmugg
on 06 Jan, 2012 14:14
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Thank You, MJF. Has this difference in dimensions been confirmed? I never saw enough follow-up posts on Saurkraut's engine plan to know if the 1.9 rods would work or not.
It seems I have seen conflicting information about the rod journal sizes. Some have said that the 1.5, 1.6, and 1.9 crankshafts all use 50.6 mm rod journals. I don't have a good way to verify in either case.
Thanks again,
Steve.
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#10
by
MJF
on 06 Jan, 2012 14:24
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I have
these dimensions. It's in finnish, but I believe you guys understand numbers
Con rod dimensions are underlined. To be exact, 1,6 etc rod journal is 47,75mm and rod big end is 50,6mm. Main bearings are same size.
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#11
by
theman53
on 06 Jan, 2012 14:49
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You can use a 1.6 mechanical engine but then the problem of sealing the head gasket if you run a 1.9 head or metal head gasket needs plugged. If you don't have the block then I would buy the one that is easiest to work with. 53 willy's bought a custom gasket to work on the mech head that was plugged already. Personally I like the way the mech head runs over a hydro head.
I think you could have some custom bearings made to make the 1.9 rods work if I understand it correctly. If the 1.9 has a bigger con rod then you could get a bearing made to take up the difference possibly??? Just thowing it out there.
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#12
by
Jetmugg
on 06 Jan, 2012 15:28
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I'm still learning (a lot). What years were the hydraulic 1.6 TD's available in the USA?
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#13
by
theman53
on 06 Jan, 2012 15:57
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Well... It should be starting in 85, BUT some were and weren't in 85 and 86. IIRC CRSMP5 has said that 87 and up were for sure hydro, but that is only with the original engine. If someone swapped it in the last 20 years it could be different. The usual way to tell is there are 2 returns on the front of the block and head if it is hydro. 1 if it is not. I have NEVER seen or heard of a hydro that didn't have 12mm head bolts, so all hydro should have 12mm head bolts. NOT all 12mm head bolts were hydro though. Kinda like the all squares are rectangles, but not all rectangles are squares deal.
Pic of said humps on head
I forgot but the FAQ is about 10 pages of FAQ's that might help, but there is a bunch of info in them. It is good bored reading if you have nothing better to do. I got the pic from this thread over there and it has pics of the blocks in it too.
http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=16688.0
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#14
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 06 Jan, 2012 16:03
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was hoping i would see you over on this board here soon!
great project!! been following it on vortex for a bit now..