Mechanical TDI Caddy on the road..little problems....

[therabbittree]

yup, I got her running on sunday and I've been using to and from work... Got some issues to fix...
       First the oil pressure doesn't go above 25Lbs ever... not even on a cold start..i tried a mechanical gauge and same thing just about 2 lbs higher reading then my electrical guage..I had the head port at first, then i tried the oil filter pad and same thing..kinda weird..the oil pressure stays between the first tick and 25 on a autometer silver faced 2 1/16" gauge..so i imagine between 5 or 10 to 25Lbs... I'm not digging that too much if you rev it the oil pressure doesn't change either..i'm running delvac 1 too..any Ideas?.. I plan to drop pan tommarrow and check the oil pump releif valve..i may play with that...how much oil pressure can a hydraulic lifter engine take?.... I like the old solid lifter 1.6 diesels 60 psi easy driving and 90 -100 on start up... i think thats too much for a hyradulic lifter.. no?... oh another note this engine as a AN oil line feeding the turbo from the oil filer pad to the turbo its a # 4 an.. I don't thing the stock metal line has a restrictor but I'm not 100 percent sure...
        Second.. this 12 mmm injection pump i had Piers in B.C. build ran awesome on my 1.6L TD .. not on the tdi with the .260 race kerma nozzles and with the pump turned up as much as i can adjust..it still doesn't smoke...maybe a small see - though intial puff but thats all..on the 1.6 if i loaded the engine I could fog a solid trail constantly behind me that would totally block two lanes of traffic I have ticket to prove it ha...I'm not sure what the problem is..it drives like it has a ton of torque down low ( blows the hides off through 3rd gear...) but any where near mid rpm and high it has no pull.. so not too inpressive. My 2001 golf tdi with eth same injectors smoked a lot moreand was way faster...argh.. my kkk24 with closed waste gate only pulls 20lbs boost now ..so there is a fuel shortage. I even have aelectrical lift pump to help feed pressure and that has little difference in performance if its on or off...I'm not sure if the pump output pressure can be turned up more some how or what... I thought a plunger swap did that?..any how I have a complete extra cummins 4bt 12mm plunger pump sitting here but the gov is different..ie lower like 2400 rpm max or something... I think joe changed his gov to a vw style ..how did you do it any pics?..is it the same as the vw one?.. I though the cummins gov was different then vw?...or should I adjust my injector break pressure lower?.... not sure what to do there...I can drive it with lower power but the oil pressure is a priority I need to figure out..... I will post pics soon.. I didn't use a intercooler yet ..but I have guages pre turbo egt  hasn't gone over 1100 yet and she cruises down the highway at 65mph at 800 egt with a early ff tranny in 5th gear....so the egt isn't an issue until i get the pump figured out..I will be either modifing a air to air  or making a air to water..not too sure yet....
Thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!

[RabbitGTDguy]

Deo,

Good to hear you have it running...sorry to hear that you have a few issues.
As far as your low oil pressure readings. I personally am stumped on that one. You asked about this before elsewhere (asking where the best place to take a reading was...), I'd really look for checking the oil pump though as that pressure is quite low for a hydraulic motor.

Is this a used TDI motor or rebuilt?

As far as your power/pump issues. The problem def. lies within the pump. A couple questions for you then. When Piers built this pump which camplate did they use? A 1.6 unit? A TDI unit? Or the cummins 4bt unit. Some in depth reading into the Bosch fuel injection pump manual as well as some new info that Jake and I were able to come across suggests that pump plunger/camplate/head selection should all be done in tie with each other to work the best. In other words, if you have a 12mm head in your pump, you wouldn't want to use the 10mm heads plunger assembly springs for the best results, etc. Also, 12mm head alone will not "bump" injection pressures as high as a TDI would like them.  Thinking about those that have used a stock 1.6TD pump on there TDI's, the stock TD pump turned up as high as it will go will only fuel the TDI to run at its lowest performance state.  So, again..i can't remember... is this a 1.6TD pump with the 1.6TD aneroid, etc. with the 12mm swap or is it a different pump base as well? Another consider in the future will be your driveshaft for the pump. If it is the 1.6TD's they have been known to break in other applications (was reading on a Seat forum the other night), especially with the 12mm head on there. With our 12mm pump heads we'll be doing timing belt changes alot more frequently (about 20k less than what factory recommends) due to the extra wear on the belt the 12mm head will result in.
Whats all this mean? Well...fueling pressure should be close to there with the 12mm head, however what camplate selection did you use in the pump? There is alot of different between the IDI camplate and the TDI/DI specific units. In example, looking at a TDI camplate (10mm pump) vs. the 4bt camplate (12mm pump) there is alot of extra "lift" provided on the 4bt's camplate....about 20% more if I had to guess on it while the "curve" looks relatively the same as the TDI pump. I wish I still had the pic but it was lost on my other computer when it crashed. The IDI camplates are much lower, and quite different looking. Best result with the IDI camplate would be one from a 1.9AAZ unit.
Another consideration (though a smaller one) is what boost pin your running in the LDA, etc? Are you running the stock 1.6TD one or something else there?
As far as the governor swap in the 4bt pump. Yes, you are right...they use a single spring "variable speed" gov. whereas the VW mechanical pumps use a caged "min/max speed" gov. The swap was fairly straightforward and easy for me to do and in doing so I am able to use the complete Cummins pump top, with its boost pin, etc. The biggest problem to overcome is the throttle shaft bushing that is in the cummins pump vs. that which is in the 1.6TD pump. To swap the gov.'s over and have them fit you must also swap the throttle shaft bushings or machine the cummins bushing a bit has it is "taller" than the VW TD's. I pressed out the bushings from the two respective pumps and used the VW pumps bushing in the cummins top and then swapped over the entire gov. assembly , etc.  Was very simple and clean as well.  Karl who tested the pump for me back when i first got it (before any gov. swaps) on his Vanagon TDI synchro initally tried the Cummins gov. setup on the pump... It ran like a bat out of hell when it it 2k...boost surged, van took off but it all cut out around 3200k or so if i remember just because of the way that gov. is made to work. At the time he had a hybrid pump that he had made and was getting ready to go on a big trip and swapped a 11mm which got toasted. The cummins pump was sitting there and he swapped the top (gov. and all) from another TD pump and used that. Ran flawlessly out to the PNW from MD without issue. Lots of power, and he actual has smoke issues that he has beens solving. Loves the power though and it was such a better solution over the hybrids that he had before. Once the min/max gov is swapped in, there are no issues with rpm cutoffs and the power is quite linear and nice. I can't wait to try mine with the cummins top, etc. and with the airflow improvements I've made as well as the new pistons...things should be quite fun.
I do have pics here of my swap. I'm waiting to receive a seal kit for my 4bt pump before I put "everything" back together but right now its sitting downstairs with the new gov. and throttle shaft installed in the cummins top...  I'll see if I can dig the pics out and post them tonight or something...


Joe

[therabbittree]

thanks for the reply joe.. well im pretty fed up and burnt out  from doing all of the is crap...ha..I may even put the passat tdi back on the road and drive it a while while I work out the bugs in the pickup. We want to sell the passat tdi wagon because it only has 85k or so on it and it is nice shape. I took it off th eroad so it wouldn't be messed up in the winter and we just bought that 2003 eurovan......any how back to the pickup...
    Oil pressure issue is  reall bugger..not sure  about that..this engine was from a running '98 tdi a friend of mine had it only has 150 k on it.. he was the only owner and did all his own maintenance and oil changes delvac 1etc..it ran fine.. his son moved it in his drive way and let the ebrake off and not in gear. His drive way is a large hill..you get the picture..it rolled backwards into a tree...totalled the car..but drive line was still mint infact he drove it to my house..he never had any oil lights or oil problems..i didn't rebuild it i just did the headgasket and oil seals and repainted it...so oil problem is a mystery to me...argh
 as for the fuel pump I gave piers a cummins 4bt and avw 1.6TD pump and saidf make the baddest ass pump you can with it i said 6000 rpm etc blah balh balh..well they ended up using the vw body and drivesahft the cummins 12mm plunger and cam plate.. they gave me all of the parts back etc..even gave me a cc spec.. I can't find that now..but teh 6000 rpm isn't true as my dyno runs showed fuel cutting off at 4800..same as a stock 1.6L TD...but this is the same pump that i have problems timing as the cam plate lift is lifting in the wrong spot for the pump lock pin..i need to time it with with et pump gear off a tooth or two to time it..so something was funny...also when we first got it running I blipped the throttle and heard  a pop and liquid was pouring out on the ground. It was fuel the pop was the coldstart lever housing behind the pump it cracked open, actually in half. the lever was down ie shut.. not advanced..we swapped that off with a 1.6TD coldstart lever to fix it and I've been driving it. Like I if I can modifiy this other complete new 4bt pump to use the vw gov I 'll use that with a tdi gear from the '98 to fit the larger shaft...... at this point I want a reliable car to drive back and forth to work..this is getting to be a *** ..besides this one I've built a few other cars for people this last year and its been 1 1/2 years straight nothing but in the garage every night i can and every weekend or pass day I can..so I'm burnt out ha..need time to be with the family etc.. i'm off the next 2 days..if i can't figure it out these two days im done with it till summer or when ever ha.. wearing earplugs and a big jacket to stay warm while driving is starting to suck too rattle boxes..reminds me of highschool ..but man that was over a decade ago......need soem ideas quick so i can save this if not i'll do it later..
keep those ideas coming
Thanks
Deo

[RabbitGTDguy]

Deo,

One thing...follow my thread about the GTD and such and you'll find something else. I forgot to mention it to you as well as 935Racer who has been IM'ing me regarding teh mTDI pump setup, etc.

The stock pulley from a 1z/AHU motor for the injection pump will not fit on the shaft of the 4bt pump. The pulley will actually slide all the way to the end more than likely. I was unable to do this with mine.

So...the fix. Well, Karl, who tested my pump originally used a 1.9 AAZ "adjustable" pulley turned backwards on the hub and it aligned right up...no problems...and makes timing adjustments really "fly" . I can forsee marking "preset" adjustsments to check against the gauge when dragging, etc. Fun stuff...
I however didn't like how "flimsy" and light the AAZ injection pump pulley seems, so I went to a MK4 style pulley I had here from an ALH motor....works...but when it was turned backwards it would hit against the injection pump mounting because it "bubbles" out... I had it machined and now it is ready to go on the 4bt pump...there are pics in the GTD Returns thread about it I believe...if not, i'll post them up. Beautiful piece now...and nice and heavy.

Yeah, those oil pressures would concern me enough to not want to drive it, etc. and check it out and see whats going on. 150k isn't bad, you wouldn't think oil pressure would be that low...especially considering what you have said on its maintenence, etc...  
Did you test it against a normal "check gauge" for oil pressure? I doubt both gauges could be bad at the same time...but, don't know...that is a weird one...

As for the pump...I'd be concerned in the future about using the old IDI pump body and shaft in the TDI motor. Just the injection pressure alone and what you want to run for boost, etc... i think you could end up snapping the shaft...its happened before. The safest bet would be the complete 4bt pump....    but thats only my opinion...

Joe

[therabbittree]

yeah ..looks liek i should do a gov swap on my other 4bt pump ...this pump i have here ran awesome in a the 1.6L idid but sucks now with the tdi...kinda weird.. the oil pressure think is messed up i need to figure that out before i drive it any more 12.5 psi isn't too cool...argh..worse comes to worst i'll drive my other 95b vr6 passat wagon..every day.... and keep the passat tdi out of the salt and parked..man two vr6s ..gas guzzlers ha compared to a tdi.... hopefully i can get teh pickup running good before waterfest....i still have aquife and 367 gear set to install and  i have that compound twin setup i want to finish..that woul;d be nice once i have oil pressure..argh..its the little things in life huh?..like oil pressure haha
later
 thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk'!

[therabbittree]

well now i got oil pressure..its a messed up story  ..i'm not gonna get into..but any how its 80 psi start and 25 idel when hot so seems good to me..gonna be putting it bad on teh road ..soon like a week or so gonna straighten out the other messed up stuff susepnsion steering rack and interior etc..then be bad again ..i hope to swap that other cummins pump on ..too and i need to use loctite on teh injecto pump braket too ..seems to have rattled loose the two front block bolts and they are missing ha..mummn.....gonna be running a hot hot thermosat too as it only gets to about 160 of so fahrenhiet...no heat in this sucker..ha
later
Deo

[therabbittree]

Joe i figured out my oil pressure and now im trying to figure out teh 4bt pump conversion i have a extra bad 11mm pump here from amk4 and i am trying to pull the hubb off to use on teh cummins pump it doesn't seem to want to budge and i already dented th eback side slightly tyring to wedge it off..how did you get you hub off so you could us eth eadjust pulley?..please let me know soon as i hope to get this done asap.
Thanks
deo

[RabbitGTDguy]

Deo...

You can't just simply swap the adjustable pulley on the cummins pump and have it work... The MK4 style pulley hub came off easily for me... however, there are clearance issues once the hub is mounted on the pump and the the injection pump sprocket is aligned. In order to get it aligned you must turn the pump sprocket "backwards" on the hub and then install...however, then...it hits the injection pump bracket mounting bolts because of the "bulge" on the one side of the beefy MK4 style pulley. I had to have mine machined down ...like this...

Before...



After...




The other solution that works without machining but I don't like the "beef" of the pulley itself for a 12mm pump is the 1.9AAZ pump pulley which is also adjustable. It turned backwards on the hub works as well but they are a little "lighter" made and harder to come by on the market. I was able to type the 1.9AAZ pump pulley p/n into worldimpex and pull it up though...they supposedly are still "available"

Joe

[therabbittree]

thanks joe..i understood what you meant  from your earlier posts and other topics explaining teh machining the mk4 pulley and running it backwards.. I don't have any aaz stuff here but a bunch of mk4 stuff so im gonna go that route..only problem is the hub will not come off the bad mk 4 pump i have..argh..might have to try a puller or heat..i played with it for a 1/2 an hour yesterday and got no where...argh
later
Deo

[RabbitGTDguy]

Man...thats weird...mine came right off... a pulley might help though. I'd mount the injection pump pulley on it and then use the puller... alot more beef on the sprocket itself then the hub alone...

Joe

[TDIMeister]

Re fuelling the solution seems simple enough: you need a TDI (preferably for the automatic) cam plate.

[RabbitGTDguy]

The camplate will not solve everything...especially with the fact that the pump he is using being a hybrid at the moment (combo IDI TD pump and 12mm head, IDI camplate, etc..).

The 11mm camplate would give some benefit to the fueling but really the whole entire head/plunger assembly should be matched together. The cummins 4bt camplate also compared to a stock 10mm  TDI camplate has about 20% more lift on it than that of the TDI camplate, but essentially the same profile. Once again I can't tell you how smoothly the 4bt pump runs on the TDI motor, after hearing the pump purr away on Karl's Synchro TDI Vanagon, there is def. no turning back. If you want the p/n for the AAZ pump pulley let me know, I have it. Also...easy solution as well would be to have the taper recut on the 1.6 pump's sprocket to match the larger shaft of the 4bt pump...that'd be really cheap and easy! Don't forget to have the keyway on the sprocket enlarged though...

Joe

[therabbittree]

well I used my harmonic balencer puller and it worked it was on there TIGHT..ha it popped off with a load crack ha....I may try that aaz part # if you have it and its a bolt on ..it is probbaly the easiest thing to do..for the mk 4 I have to machine a key way in the hub, machine the pulley to clear when turned backward and drill it for the locking pin..sounds like a pain in the butt for the machinist or at least $100 bucks in machining for me to pay for...ha....any how I cleaned and organized my garage the last two days..now i can open both caddy doors in the garage and not hit any thing yeaaaaahhhh. I GOT ROOM.. yeaaahhhh....
firt thing tomarrow I will drop the oil pan and see how th ebearing are after a 3 days of driving with 5-20psi oil pressure.. I hope all is good still it still has 80 psi on start and 25 when warm at idle when you blipp the throttle it gets up to 75psi so I think it will look good down there but I want to check for sure.....then I want to do a new front suspension lift...instead of having the perches cut and raise 2 inches like it is now I will take a stock strut and keep the perches the same but cut and move the strut to wheel bearing housing mounting plates and move thenm down some how..might fab up a pipe to weld to bottom of strut and reinforce em... right now the truck sucks to drive as the suspension is fully expended and can not compress at all so not shock absorbing or road hugging properties at all..after the front suspension then add the rear shackles and re do the exhaust ..ha now it exits right behind the drivers door and it is way too loud..need ear plugs..I will re route it to go behind the passenger rear wheel.. no muffler  still unless its is too loud in the cab again... I may do some dyna mat too  not sure how much it costs ..but its all de tarred and no felt under the rug with out the rain gutter it was drafty... fix some more bugs then tackle the 4bt pump gov mod and conversion for the air to air intercooler etc.....phew,, I think I can handle the passat vr6 for a week or two to finish the caddy the right way....again joe can you post the aaz inj pump pulley part # for me?...
thanks
Deo
\x/ hillfolk!

[therabbittree]

oh and when I swap the pumps I will pull the plunger in my hybrid pump and see what it has for a cam plate etc... on the injection pump note...how is your 4bt  pump setup?.. does it have teh injection lock pin setup?...ie before you mount it your supposed to pull the pin out or something similar ?..how does that work and does your s have it?..also the 4 bt pump I used as a donor fro the hybrid had manual fuel shut off lever also ......but the plunger still has the electric fuel shut off ..mummn can I some how eliminate the electric fuel shut off some how plug the port alowing fuel to run through fully and just run a shut off cable to kill the fuel...also are you gonna run a cold start advance setup?..the newer untouched 4bt pump I am gonna use doesn't have acold start advance lever..I'm debating trying to add it ..and or messing with swapping a tdi advance piston cover for more travel...bad idea or good one?... I have to dig up jakes info from old posts about that...
later
deo
\x/ hillfolk

[RabbitGTDguy]

fix some more bugs then tackle the 4bt pump gov mod and conversion for the air to air intercooler etc.....phew,, I think I can handle the passat vr6 for a week or two to finish the caddy the right way....again joe can you post the aaz inj pump pulley part # for me?...

Here is what I pull up from ETKA on the AAZ injection pump pulley...
028 130 111F

Here is the IMPEX link to it... http://www.worldimpex.com/search_by_partno.html?searchmode=partno&partno=028+130+111+F

They do show they carry it, etc. However, no pic...i can't gurantee that it is an "adjustable" one. I'd call and ask them to take a look at it, etc. They are pretty nice about things IMO. If its not the right one, i can email Karl and see if he has the P/N around for the one that is on his...

oh and when I swap the pumps I will pull the plunger in my hybrid pump and see what it has for a cam plate etc... on the injection pump note...how is your 4bt pump setup?.. does it have teh injection lock pin setup?...ie before you mount it your supposed to pull the pin out or something similar ?..how does that work and does your s have it?..also the 4 bt pump I used as a donor fro the hybrid had manual fuel shut off lever also ......but the plunger still has the electric fuel shut off ..mummn can I some how eliminate the electric fuel shut off some how plug the port alowing fuel to run through fully and just run a shut off cable to kill the fuel...also are you gonna run a cold start advance setup?..the newer untouched 4bt pump I am gonna use doesn't have acold start advance lever..I'm debating trying to add it ..and or messing with swapping a tdi advance piston cover for more travel...bad idea or good one?...

I don't see any kind of "injection lock pin" on mine. I'm not sure what exactly that is your talkin about...would have to maybe see a pic.... As for the manual fuel shutoff, yes...mine does have it but that "solenoid" that you see that is electronic at the front of the pump is the pumps version of a "cold" start advance...only electronic. Fuel is completely controlled via the fuel shut-off solenoid, single wire, on/off on the pump head side just like all the other VW pumps and all VE's for that matter.  Most 4bt pumps I imagine that you'll find (they are late 80's to mid 90's) should mostly NOT have manual cold start advances... I will not be using one on mine as this car doesn't see cold weather, etc. so no sense in having it. Haven't played with the idea of the advance cover swap beyond possibly changing the advance spring in the cummins pump to a VW unit that is more than likely better matched to the gov. being swapped over. However, the pump ran awesome on Karl's app without swapping the springs at all.

Joe