Author Topic: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap  (Read 9220 times)

May 20, 2010, 04:35:11 pm

ventureforth

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Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« on: May 20, 2010, 04:35:11 pm »
I've been reading up on transmission swaps and had a quick question.  From what I've ready, if I'm not mistaken, it sounds as if I can swap any of the 4-series transmissions (i.e. 4T, 4S) onto my '82 Rabbit 1.6NA in place of the stock 4-speed.  They all have the 90mm flange.  However, based on info from a site I found linked in another post, there are mounting differences between some of them (hole vs. stud).  Which would I need?  4S uses stud mount, 4T and the others use a hole mount.

Any help would be appreciated.

Thanks.

Reply #1May 20, 2010, 06:21:31 pm

theman53

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #1 on: May 20, 2010, 06:21:31 pm »

This is the site this is from and has everything that you could ever want to know about trans.
http://www.brokevw.com/

Reply #2May 20, 2010, 07:29:54 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2010, 07:29:54 pm »
Your options are more widespread than just selecting from trans with 4_ codes.

My 81 has an ACH code 5spd, from an 85 diesel.
The mk2 diesel trans are all 90mm - but not all will have the right mounting provisions for mk1 - i don't think....

late 89 - 92 diesel trans are all dogs anyway
91-92 ecodiesel trans isn't usually a good choice either

Reply #3May 20, 2010, 07:40:59 pm

ventureforth

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2010, 07:40:59 pm »
But what is most straightforward?  Would the correct 4_ be a simple bolt on affair for the most part, while the later models would require more mods and fabrication, etc.?  I'm not running a lot of power in front of the tranny.  It's a stock 1.6NA (though I might send the pump to Giles).  Even then, I would imagine even the 4_ tranny is up to the task.  My biggest concern at the moment is ease of install, but reliability is always a consideration.

Reply #4May 21, 2010, 12:18:25 am

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #4 on: May 21, 2010, 12:18:25 am »
Any of the mk1 or mk2 trans will be plenty reliable.
They are all 020 series. Proven through the test of time.
Keeping proper lubricant level is about the only vital element on them.

90mm flanges - and the correct mounting provisions - will be the most straitforward for sure - most all of us prefer a direct replacement.

You can convert 100mm flanges, over to 90mm flanges.
But the mounting provision deal is non-negoitable.

ACN is the "hot code" for most mk1 diesel owners.
But it comes with 100mm flanges, and that requires a change of flanges, or knuckles, or hybrid axles.

I think about all the 1985 and 1986 020 trans have both mk1/mk2 mounting access, maybe further in some cases. But an 85 code ACH is a direct bolt in for sure on mk1. Still verify anything before purchase, never say never. You could be the new owner of a needle in a haystack otherwise.

The final drive ratio is usually a big part of choosing what to buy. And sometimes availability will limit your choices. So it's good to have as many choices (codes) to choose from as possible.

Take a look at the tranny charts on these links:
Both have some really good info on codes, ratios, flange sizes, and original applications.

www.a2resource.com

http://www.scirocco.org/gears/

If you do a lot of highway driving, you'll want a final drive number that is numerically lower than 3.00 if possible.
You take the ring/pinion ratio (3.67 for instance) and multiply that by the 5th gear (0.75 for instance) to arrive at the final drive number.

Code FF is a good Mk1 5spd code, and you will find others listed too.
Limiting to 4_ codes might make the hunt tougher.
Just depends on what is around in your area.
Good to have as many codes that are satisfactory to your needs as possible, when you begin the hunt.

There was also a nice 4spd called 3+E.
I "think" it was code GC, from memory.
2 years ago i never planned on owning a mk1, and could have scored a 3+E on the cheap cheap. oh well

I have an 82 4spd Truck - it has the crap code GN.
My 81 Truck was also originally 4spd code GN.
It was converted to the 1985 ACH 5spd.

You will probably have to make some mild mods to your existing shift box underneath the vehicle - unless you can source the shift box from an original 5spd mk1. I had to make some relief cuts on the outer perimeter rim, and bent the rim flat in the area where the shifter fork was rubbing/binding when shifted into 5th.

I didn't do the 4spd to 5spd conversion.
A previous owner did that.
Shifting into 5th was a hassle, and that was the cure I applied to it.
It will probably hamper the use and/or lifespan of an underbody (protective) shift boot if you have to do that modification. fwiw

I doubt the majority of mk1 owners have this underbody boot in place anyway. Many never knew there was one there. Usually the original is long gone. Replacements are $40+.

Good luck on finding the tranny you want/need.
Was very wise to do this research First.

BrokeVW.com is a top-flight guy.
Don't hesitate to contact him if you need to, for anything.








Reply #5August 15, 2010, 11:41:08 pm

ventureforth

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #5 on: August 15, 2010, 11:41:08 pm »
So, I have easy access for a good price to a 4T and a 4S locally.  No FF.  No 7A.  No 4A.  No GP or GY.  No ACN.  These look like decent options.  Would you recommend one over the other for my '82NA?  Here are the specs:

CODE R&P      1st       2nd      3rd       4th      5th     Overall  Flanges   Switch  Mount

4S     3.94     3.45     1.94     1.29     0.91     0.75     2.96     90mm     Large    Hole

4T     3.67     3.45     1.94     1.29     0.91     0.75     2.75     90mm     Large    Stud

Seems like 4T would be better final drive for highway cruising, but would it really be that much of a difference?  And then I've heard conflicting info saying 4S was stud mount and sometimes read that it was hole mount.

Thoughts?

Reply #6August 16, 2010, 05:00:08 am

theman53

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #6 on: August 16, 2010, 05:00:08 am »
I would go with the 3.67 ratio 4T. The only downside is it would possibly be a little more sluggish off the bottom. But 1st gear is exceptionally low on these and if you have that problem then there is an excuse for more performance upgrades.
I have an AGS and had a 3.67 installed into it over the 3.94 that was in it. I will let you know how it works in about a week :D

Reply #7August 16, 2010, 08:48:51 am

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #7 on: August 16, 2010, 08:48:51 am »
The trannys with the 3.00 range final drive cruise smooth in an NA up to around 70 - maybe 75. After that they start buzzing the engine pretty good.
In a TD, to me, they start feeling buzzed around 65-70.

The 2.75 range, is about like adding a 6th gear to the above mentioned final drive range. I'd go for it if you like to cruise above 70 and do right much highway traveling.

FN is another long leg Mk1 tranny code.

Reply #8August 16, 2010, 12:26:08 pm

ventureforth

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #8 on: August 16, 2010, 12:26:08 pm »
Yeah, I looked for FF/FN trannies.  No luck so far.  I'm still a little confused about the stud vs. hole thing.  According to brokevw site, MK1 used studs, so my GC uses studs, but I was told the 4S would match my NA and 4T would be for turbo, but the 4S uses holes and the 4T uses studs, so I would think it would be the other way around.

What am I missing?

Reply #9August 16, 2010, 12:45:48 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #9 on: August 16, 2010, 12:45:48 pm »
Just maybe some crossed wire info perhaps.
On the Broke site he has a picture of a tranny that has provisions for both mk1 and mk2. I think about all 85 and 86 trannys have provisions for both.

But your 4_ codes are all mk1 i thought.
Probably the ones with holes, have holes in place of the studs - and you would use a bolt/nut. The multi-use trannys are that way also IIRC.

Check out what your 4speed does for the rear tranny mount, and then go check out the 4T.

 

Reply #10August 16, 2010, 01:01:29 pm

ventureforth

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #10 on: August 16, 2010, 01:01:29 pm »
Here's another question:

A2Resource shows my GC as having the White(16 tooth) speedometer gear and being A1 platform.  It shows 4S as having teh same, but for A2 platform.  4T is listed as A1 platform, but with Red(15 tooth) speedo gear.  Would that be an issue?

Reply #11August 16, 2010, 01:24:41 pm

Baron VonZeppelin

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #11 on: August 16, 2010, 01:24:41 pm »
Okay, i didn't realize they used 4_ codes on up into mk2.
Never encountered that yet physically.
4S 1988-92 = probably no good for you with mk1.

GC = Go Crawl - you'll be glad after doing about any swap.

4T is your ticket, i think.
Just make sure it still has the red gear inside it/with it.
Or you'll have to buy one - and on top of that - you might need the other numbered dash cluster/speedo. Look under the needle on the face of your speedo and see what the little number is ... like 1540 or 1575 iirc.


Reply #12August 16, 2010, 03:47:59 pm

theman53

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #12 on: August 16, 2010, 03:47:59 pm »
I had to get the red gear ... it is for 3.67 R&P
                 The white gear is for the 3.89 R&P
              I think the green gear is for the 4.20 R&P

Reply #13August 16, 2010, 03:52:16 pm

ventureforth

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #13 on: August 16, 2010, 03:52:16 pm »
I believe you are correct based on the info from that A2Resource site.  So, it seems an FN would be the most straightforward swap, giving me the same basic gearing as the 4T but with the right speedo gear already there.

Reply #14August 16, 2010, 04:21:19 pm

GEE-BEE

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Re: Question about 4 spd to 5 spd swap
« Reply #14 on: August 16, 2010, 04:21:19 pm »
here yo go
ebay item 380258138107
1.9 AAZ, CHD 5spd with Peloquin
KO4/KO3 Hybrid turbo
Giles Pump OHC
Complete Techtonics 2'5 S/S DP and Exhaust
Coilovers, MKII Pedal Swap,G60 BRAKES
MK1 JETTA DASH
675MM 16V radiator (MKII) PASSAT DUAL FAN
42K original miles , South African Front End
15x6 Le Casletts 195-45-15