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No start issue...
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 05 Jun, 2009 20:31
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so, i had an intermittent problem with my 84 TD jetta not wanting to start, no cranking at all, when this first started, it was a rarity and if u let it sit for a few minutes, it would fire up, then it got worse, i had to use a screw driver across the starter to get me home one day, car has new 1000CCA battery, new starter and alt. new ignition switch, new battery cables, all grounds cleaned up and greased, battery was just charged and tested good, when key is in on position, everything works, headlights, fan, etc... when moved to crank position, i lose power everywhere, no headlights, all interior lights go off, but my battery stays at constant 12v, when checked with DVOM all relays click, no fuses blown, and even when i bridge my starter with a screw driver, it clicks the first few times it bridged, but no crank,then no clicking at all, but i can see it arching, and i have 12v there, what is going on? just changed starter today with no difference and swapped battery, no change, i kno it has to be a short somewhere or a bad relay, but can u guys give me any direction to go? thanks!
also, i can push start the car fine, and it runs fine, just wont restart if its shut off,
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#1
by
Vincent Waldon
on 05 Jun, 2009 20:35
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Hmmm you've covered a lot of the bases. There's no additional relay at work here, other than the starter solenoid itself, and the screwdriver bypass eliminates the entire ignition switch circuit as a suspect.
When you say "bridged" you're referring to bridging between the big lug that goes to the battery and the spade lug from the ignition cct?
When you replaced the starter did you replace the starter bushing embedded in the transmission?
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#2
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 05 Jun, 2009 20:44
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yes, from the battery + on starter to solonoid, just sparks, no i didnt change the bushing, also my battery was relocated in the trunk, and i have a 2 gauge wire relocation kit from Summit racing, and it worked fine all winter, so i dont think thats an issue,
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#3
by
Vincent Waldon
on 05 Jun, 2009 20:54
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When you jump the starter (or turn the key for that matter) does it sound like the starter tries to engage and stalls, or is there no sound at all from the starter?
battery reloc kit adds an extra dimension... have you got a set of booster cables? If so, you could pull the battery and use the jumper cables to temporarily hook it up directly to a good ground and the starter positive stud. If it still fails the screwdriver test you've eliminated everything and it's gotta be another bum starter or excessive wear on the bushing is finally catching up to you. If it works, you know to double-check your relocation kit.
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#4
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 05 Jun, 2009 21:03
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starter tries to engage first 3 time i tap power to it, but never turns over, then nothing but sparking and i can hear a relay click, key does nothing in start position, no click from starterat all but relays do click, also, sometimes, my idiot lights all come on when key is on, and go off when in start, other times, no lights at all when key is on, and sometimes just dim, but still have over 12v at battery, i already tried jumping it from anohter running vehicle, no change, what would the bushing do in terms of not cranking? ive neer had one go bad before,
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#5
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 05 Jun, 2009 21:44
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i didnt try, but if i push start, it fires right up, and there is no load on battery when its in start position or jumpered on starter.
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#6
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 06 Jun, 2009 06:54
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not to argue or sound like a know it all, but i just dont think its the starter, the one on it was only 5 months old, then i replaced it with a brand new one, and same thing happined, but to be safe i will pull it off and bench test it. any other ideas? it just seems like there is a short in the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter, and is causing everything to lose power, i just checked, even with key start position, i am not getting any power to the soloniod on starter from factory wiring.
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#7
by
Golf/Jetta
on 06 Jun, 2009 08:07
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bad/durty wire connection/corrossion somewhere.
might even be a connection not making contact properly
other then that a broken wire inside the starter or just bad luck
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#8
by
Vincent Waldon
on 06 Jun, 2009 08:46
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not to argue or sound like a know it all, but i just dont think its the starter, the one on it was only 5 months old, then i replaced it with a brand new one, and same thing happined, but to be safe i will pull it off and bench test it. any other ideas? it just seems like there is a short in the wiring from the ignition switch to the starter, and is causing everything to lose power, i just checked, even with key start position, i am not getting any power to the soloniod on starter from factory wiring.
Problem is that the screwdriver test bypasses any and all ignition wiring problems.
Troublesooting sometimes means eliminating suspects...screwdriver test eliminates the ignition wiring, jumper cables eliminates the primary bat wiring...you are pretty much down to the starter.
A Worn starter bushing can cause this exact problem by binding the starter...the big current drawn by a stalled starter will cause all your lights to go out..especially with your battery mounted in the trunk.
It's a dollar part that takes 5 minutes to change out...eliminates it as a suspect...and to Andrews suggestion you could get the starter benchtested while you were at it to eliminate yet another suspect.
Bosch ships a new bushing with their starters and won't honor a warrenty if the bushing is not replaced...used to think they were being anal but I've seen starters jam with my own two eyes.
Just another suggestion as you eliminate suspects...
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#9
by
RustyCaddy
on 06 Jun, 2009 10:22
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Had a sort of similar problem...attached a grounding wire directly between the starter casing and the cars body and that fixed it...so maybe?
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#10
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 06 Jun, 2009 17:56
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yea the new starter came with the bushing, i will try to install it tomorrow. whats the easiest way to get the old one out?
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#11
by
Vincent Waldon
on 06 Jun, 2009 19:01
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#12
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 06 Jun, 2009 19:14
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cool, thanks much appreciated, will try this tomorrow in the day light, then if still nothing, i will hook more ground straps up and hope for the best, i did notice something unusual when i pushed started it the other day, my volt meter was only reading 12v, not the normal 14v, but my batery light on dash was not on, so could this be related at all?
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#13
by
boosted_diesel_84
on 07 Jun, 2009 12:33
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so today, i pulled the starter, and bench tested, and worked fine,installed all wiring, and grounded it without it touching the fylwheel, and nothing, just a click, and lost power, headlights go off, fan goes off, but dome light is still on and bright. i tried adding ground straps everywhere, no difference, i also noticed while cycling the key, a few times, the idiots lights were not coming on at all, but the low coolant light kept flashing, even after key was removed, and i had to cycle it a few more times for the light to go off, i also ran a cable from battery + to the soloniod on starter, it sparked and clicked but starter didnt turn over, it has to be a wiring problem of some sort, when the key is in start position, what else is energized when in start position?
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#14
by
Vincent Waldon
on 07 Jun, 2009 13:20
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O.K. Place the vehicle in neutral with the e-brake on (wheel chock too if necessary). Now disconnect both battery cables and all the wires from the starter. Grab a pair of jumper cables. and connect them to the battery. Clip the other negative to the starter housing and connect the positive to the starter sense connection and the lug which usually has the big red wire on it. If the starter does not spin correctly, then you have now determined that it has nothing to do with any of the vehicle wiring.
... and since you bench tested the starter you know it's good, so it's gonna run... especially with that shiny new bushing in place?
In actual fact there's probably multiple things going on here... your ignition switch sounds suspect due to the behaviour of the idiot lights, and I've personally never seen a battery reloc kit that was designed for the heavier currents a diesel engine requires, but all of this is moot if a screwdriver won't engage the starter when it's connected to a known good source of power with jumper cables... so, one thing at a time !