thrust washers

[fatmobile]

It's becoming common knowledge that the main bearings with the integral thrust washers can be tough on the crank.
 I'm looking for part numbers.
 Anyone got part numbers for the main bearing sets with the 3 piece thrust bearings?
 .025 over with standard thrust?
 .025 over with undersize thrust?

[fspGTD]

Here's what my research has uncovered so far...
-From the VW dealer-
Set of thrust washers:
* 026 198 421 (standard size) $20-$23
The pieces contained in this set are:
* 056 105 637 B (upper thrust washer, qty: 2)
* 056 105 635 B (lower thrust washer, qty: 2)

Set of 5 main bearings for thrust washer and diesel application:
* 026 198 491 (standard size) $33-$38
* 068 198 493 (.25mm undersize) $56-$65
* 068 198 495 (.5mm undersize)  $56-$65
* 068 198 497 (.75mm undersize) $56-$65

Also there are individual main bearings available, although I am not clear on whether they are suitable for diesel application or gasser-only.  Gasser application will I believe have an oil groove all the way around bearing number 4 while diesel will only have no oil groove in the bottom part of the bearing.:
* 026 198 491 A (standard size) ...not sure if I have this right...
* 056 105 567 B (.25mm undersize) $23-$26
* 056 105 573 B (.5mm undersize) $23-$26
* 056 105 579 B (.75mm undersize) $23-$26

rod bearings: (Note: price is per bearing half! So 8 needed for a 4-cyl...)
* 033 105 701 (standard size) $12-$14
* 033 105 707 (.25mm undersize) $12-$14
* 033 105 713 (.5mm undersize) $12-$14
* 033 105 719 (.75mm undersize) $27-$32

-From the aftermarket-
* parts4vws standard size bearing set with thrust washers for gasser application:
http://www.parts4vws.com/catalog/product_detail.asp?PartNumber=026198491A%2D421
note - looks like these are glyco (federal mogul) brand
* techtonics standard size bearing set with thrust washers:
http://www.techtonicstuning.com/viewpart.asp?partnum=104.101
w/ .25mm undersize:
http://www.techtonicstuning.com/viewpart.asp?partnum=104.106
* qualityvwparts: http://www.qualityvwparts.com/mainbrgs.html
* altrom (http://www.altrom.com) sells a bunch of the good 1.6l diesel bottom end stuff:
Main Bearings .25mm  W/O THURST SHOULDER  026 198 493  $35.80
Main Bearings STD  W/O THRUST SHOULDER  026 198 491  $42.50
Thrust Washers STD   026 198 421  $11.60
Rod Bearings .25mm  w/o Oil Hole  068 105 707  $23.50 (these rod bearing part numbers don't match VW/ETKA's)
Rod Bearings STD  w/o Oil Hole  068 105 701  $18.90

[fatmobile]

Thanks Jake and your info on holding the clutch in, especially when starting the car, causing wear on the thrust bearings has had a great effect on my driving habits.
 I was never big on holding the clutch in at stoplight anyway, mostly because of wear on the clutch release bearing. I hold it in even less now.
 I almost always held the clutch in while starting ... when the bearings were dry and wear was heavy.
 Pressure plates like the 16V, which applies more pressure to the clutch disc, would even cause more wear right? Not because it applies more pressure to the disc but because it takes more pressure to release it.
 I'd like to be able to just swap out the center bearing setup on an engine I just rebuilt. Glad to hear I can get seperate bearings and don't have to buy a whole new set, they are pricey though.
 The center bearing looks like all the other bearings, when the thrust washers aren't on it. I can probably just pull a bearing out of another set and buy thrust washers.
 The qualityvwparts link showed standard thrust washers for for $11.03 and their undersize bearings all had one piece, integral thrust.
 What do you think of federal mogul/glyco?

[ricosuave]

sorry for the small hijack, fatmobile, but a question:

you were talking how it is detremental to hold the clutch in while starting - my 97 1.9 idi HAS to be held in for it to start - is there a way around that?

rico

[dieselweasel]

If you wanted to, you could bypass the clutch interlock switch.  It isn't "detrimental" to hold the clutch in while starting though.  There is always a layer of oil on the thrust washers even after the engine sits for a lengthy period.  Thrust washer failure is quite rare.

[fspGTD]

Premature thrust bearing failure might be more of an issue for the integrated one-piece 3rd main bearing/thrust bearings than the separate thrust washers, but it's definitely a real potential problem: http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=399
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=1694&&start=37

Talked to my local machinist / vw engine builder more about the thrust washers situation.  He acknowledged the standard sized thrust washers are still available.  He said that oversized thrust washers used to be available, but now they seem to have died up.  He said that to restore a bad crank that has a buggered up thrust surface, he now needs to weld the thrust surface to add material to have it work properly with a standard sized thrust washer, whereas before when he could source the oversized thrust washers, the thrust surface on the crank could be just turned down to fit.

[8/29 Edit:] also a search on vwhoretex uncovered many reports of problems with one-piece integrated main/thrust bearing problems.  Here is one good example:
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=1737351

Also found an interesting caption gleaned from this thread:
"Here is something some might find interesting.......this is the comparison of as early ABA thrust bearing vs. the currently available "one piece" main/thrust bearing combo.If you look at the "3 piece" thrust bearing,it has wider thrust surface area than the newer style"
...unfortunately the picture described by this caption is not available.

[fatmobile]

I took a picture of the thrust bearing beside the thrust washer.
  The one with the integral bearing looks like it has less surface area.
 I colored the actual contact surface with back magic marker so it would show up better.

[fspGTD]

Wow - that really does show quite a difference in the thrust bearing surface area.

I took a picture of the failed integrated thrust/3rd main from dad's 1.6lVNTD.  This pic shows for contrast, one half failed side and other half the good side:


And also here is a comparison showing the good 3rd main/thrust (from the Rabbit GTD autocrosser) held next to the good surface of the failed 1.6lVNTD, so you can see how they are constructed differently.  They are from different manufacturers, and the one that has the copper layer is the one that held up.