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#45
by
clbanman
on 14 Mar, 2009 08:26
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It appears that there is rust on some of the metal surfaces of the HG. Was this there when you took the head off? There is also an area of the first closeup of the HG at the left front where the surface looks almost as if there is carbon/combustion across the sealing surface. There are a few areas that look to me as if there wasn't a 100% seal.
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#46
by
Jettagli16v
on 14 Mar, 2009 15:12
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Yes, I agree about the black marks over the sealing rings for the cylinders.
(and thanks for taking the time to look and help me!)
It is difficult to tell, as despite my best attempts, the head did not come off "clean"
(or in one pull)
I had the bright idea to take the head without removing the turbo and manifolds, and when I got the last head bolt out, I tried to pick it up and about gave myself a hernia.
After 10 minutes or trying to lift it from every angle, and setting it on an off the block many times, I called my buddy to help lift.
Unfortunately, that means that I cannot really rely on the HG for data.
I can however count on the low compression,
and know that if my head and HG and block all hold air, the motor will run again!
Thanks,
BRAD
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#47
by
Jettagli16v
on 15 Mar, 2009 13:43
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OK,
I am sorry, but I have never been here on a motor before.
(well, I have replaced visibly failed components, but not much measuring!)
I now own a feeler gauge, and dont know where to stick it!
I am presuming I am measuring the gap between piston top and cylinder?
or rings and cylinder?
A little advice here would be appreciated!
THANKS!
-Brad
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#48
by
jtanguay
on 15 Mar, 2009 14:04
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OK,
I am sorry, but I have never been here on a motor before.
(well, I have replaced visibly failed components, but not much measuring!)
I now own a feeler gauge, and dont know where to stick it!
I am presuming I am measuring the gap between piston top and cylinder?
or rings and cylinder?
A little advice here would be appreciated!
THANKS!
-Brad
get the feeler gauge, and dip it in a bit of oil and then stick it in between the piston and cylinder wall. go until you find the biggest size that will fit in between, and then that is the gap. alternatively you could simply use a caliper gauge to measure the cylinders. with the caliper gauge you want to measure both front & back and then left and right so you can see if there is too much ovaling of the cylinders. a little is okay but too much is bad.
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#49
by
Jettagli16v
on 15 Mar, 2009 14:07
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Sweet, thanks,
Ill get out there in a few to see what I got!
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#50
by
Jettagli16v
on 15 Mar, 2009 14:26
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OK, Just a quick minute with cylinder #1 and #4,
I found #1 took a .406mm
#3 took a .356mm
that is what would slide in between the cylinder wall and piston, but not past the first ring. The way the leaves of the gauge slid into the gap, I was trying to be careful not to mar the cylinder wall.
I will go back and check 2 and 3 in a minute.
-Brad
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#51
by
jtanguay
on 15 Mar, 2009 14:40
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OK, Just a quick minute with cylinder #1 and #4,
I found #1 took a .406mm
#3 took a .356mm
that is what would slide in between the cylinder wall and piston, but not past the first ring. The way the leaves of the gauge slid into the gap, I was trying to be careful not to mar the cylinder wall.
I will go back and check 2 and 3 in a minute.
-Brad
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
76.48mm pistons work in 76.51mm bores, so you have a clearance of 0.03mm with a maximum wear limit of 0.07mm. hmmm seems like you're way off on the clearance, but you can get away with honing the walls and installing new rings. getting the block bored out and new pistons will set you back quite a bit... and isn't a small job.
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#52
by
Jettagli16v
on 15 Mar, 2009 14:49
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OK, so I definitely should not be able to get that particular leaf of the feeler gauge in the gap at all, then? (it doesnt go in too far!)
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
And by looking good, you mean like we can keep the pistons and just do rings?
Thanks, JT!
I totally appreciate your help!
Ill get back with numbers from all sides on all 4 pistons.
I also suppose to be fair I should try this in the middle of the cylinder, so my "ring ridge" does not make things look better than they are?
-Brad
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#53
by
jtanguay
on 15 Mar, 2009 15:53
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OK, so I definitely should not be able to get that particular leaf of the feeler gauge in the gap at all, then? (it doesnt go in too far!)
well so far its looking good... #1 had the best compression, but the most cyl wear...
And by looking good, you mean like we can keep the pistons and just do rings?
Thanks, JT!
I totally appreciate your help!
Ill get back with numbers from all sides on all 4 pistons.
I also suppose to be fair I should try this in the middle of the cylinder, so my "ring ridge" does not make things look better than they are?
-Brad
just installing new rings isn't the "right" way of doing it, but the right way costs a lot $$$ and is very involved... most of the work is just stripping the motor and then re-assembling. on my old 1.6TD i had new rings put in, and it made a big difference with the way it ran and lowered oil consumption.
yea... the ring ridge will give you false readings. and it should be removed. with the readings you're showing, i wonder if you couldn't just buy oversized pistons and run it without boring it out?
maybe i was being a bit optimistic when i said it was looking good... as in the cylinder with the most wear should have shown a lower compression PSI. there are a few variables that can control that though... one of which being a head gasket failure.
if the feeler gauge bends enough then you can stick it in. the oil will help from damaging the components. it should be able to gently slide in without much effort at all.
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#54
by
Jettagli16v
on 16 Mar, 2009 13:01
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The head is now at the head shop.
For $100 they clean it, dis assemble it, and check it for straight and cracks.
He was familiar with the cracks inbetween the valves, and said as long as it does not go through to the port, they will just peen them to keep them from spreading.
I trust them, and if it needs guides, they will install, and I want new valve stem seals regardless.
They also may have some help on a custom made MLS gasket. They know of a few companies who can make them.
Now, my only concern is the block.
I need to figure out how deep I am going: Rings and bearings, or punch it out and go up on pistons. I may have a good line on NOS oversize pistons, which may help lessen the blow.
Is the feeler gauge the best bet towards determining the block's condition,
or should I get a micrometer to measure the inside of the cylinder wall?
And, my ARP's showed up today... very cool!
Thanks,
BRAD
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#55
by
jtanguay
on 16 Mar, 2009 13:24
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The head is now at the head shop.
For $100 they clean it, dis assemble it, and check it for straight and cracks.
He was familiar with the cracks inbetween the valves, and said as long as it does not go through to the port, they will just peen them to keep them from spreading.
I trust them, and if it needs guides, they will install, and I want new valve stem seals regardless.
They also may have some help on a custom made MLS gasket. They know of a few companies who can make them.
Now, my only concern is the block.
I need to figure out how deep I am going: Rings and bearings, or punch it out and go up on pistons. I may have a good line on NOS oversize pistons, which may help lessen the blow.
Is the feeler gauge the best bet towards determining the block's condition,
or should I get a micrometer to measure the inside of the cylinder wall?
And, my ARP's showed up today... very cool!
Thanks,
BRAD
the feeler gauge is an okay method to measure the clearance, but isn't the best.. the micrometer is the best and provides better accuracy.
before you go and buy new pistons, make sure to take all measurements of the cylinder bore (side to side & front & back) and take the largest number to determine which size piston to buy. take into consideration the labour involved in taking the engine out and dismantling it and then re-assembling. if you go that route, change the intermediate shaft bearings as well.
it all depends on how much you want to spend, and how long you intend on keeping the vehicle. i would only invest that kind of money on something i plan to keep.
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#56
by
Jettagli16v
on 16 Mar, 2009 14:27
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Well, I will have a "cylinder mic"
by the end of the week.
I really dont want to rebore and go up on the pistons,
my plan was never to have this be the one and only motor ever in the car.
However, at this point, I just need to get my car back, and will do what I must to accomplish that.
Part of me just wants to do what I need to do in the head,
ARPs and MLS,
and do rings and rod bearings and hope for the best.
Am I crazy?
-Brad
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#57
by
jtanguay
on 16 Mar, 2009 14:41
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Part of me just wants to do what I need to do in the head,
ARPs and MLS,
and do rings and rod bearings and hope for the best.
Am I crazy?
-Brad
nope. i had rings done on my old 1.6 and it worked out fine. the pistons were pretty sloppy in the cylinders too... probably as bad or worse than yours, but it ran good and i boosted it to 20 psi regularly.
even on my 1.9TDI longblock i bought i just did a re-ring. thing is, that the block was still within spec (came from Europe, where they use high quality oils... and much better diesel) so that was awesome.
i think your best option (if you want to have a fully fresh 1.6TD) would be to source a 1.6TD with really bad compression and then punch it out to 3rd oversize with new pistons, and then transfer over all your junk including the head you are reworking. put the old head on your current block and sell that to recoup some money, or even just rebuild it and sell it and recoup more money. i was trying to do that, but i got screwed over royally because of where i was storing the stuff
. there are deals to be had, but the problem is that you need to be there when they happen. :lol:
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#58
by
Jettagli16v
on 16 Mar, 2009 14:46
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My biggest issue is the cost of a darn 1.6 longblock!
I have been unable to find them below $1000 (many can be had betweek $2k-$3k!), and
that is just crazy to me!
(I remember when you could not get rid of a diesel block for $100!)
I have been steady looking for a cheap MF code block,
but they dont seem to be out there.
If I am spending a grand, I would rather spend it on my engine than another.
Ill mic out the block, and if it is close, probably go for the rings and bearings.
Thanks!
-Brad
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#59
by
Jettagli16v
on 16 Mar, 2009 16:47
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wow.
I saw it and hesitated for a moment ("well, I can put it on the card...")
and thought better of it.
My strong hope is that my engine is not that bad off.
but then again, i had hoped not to have to take the head off,
and then i got over it.
-Brad