Anyone with an mTDI that really works?

[fairweather]

Have you seen a 09 in real life?

No, that's why I said "decipher". I have considered the 09 TDI but the mpg numbers aren't what I expected and I am not impressed. I would rather have the 3 cylinder Polo numbers.
:arrow:

I think Andrew wants to know why specifically VW decided to make the rotary pumped TDI electronic.

I thought he said this:

a complete computer controlled engine management system

I answered to the best of my ability, observations and experience.
:arrow:

but I doubt all electronics

This is what I said:

So my theory is that a large part of the electronic movement

These are two different things, I don't really put much weight on absolutes, they are rarely applicable.
:arrow:
This is the problem with posts like these that seem to go super nova, I asked what I thought was a simple question and we go from a to b by starting with z.
:arrow:
This guy seems to understand what I am talking about:

I would imagine someone would be able to find performance data from a m-tdi vs e-tdi LT 2.8 van.

I've been doing alot of research online in the last couple days, lots of interesting stuff but no definitive answer. Yes I do believe that over the years some emissions reduction has occurred, I never denied that nor was that ever my question.
:arrow:
My question is and always has been:

Show me some data about the differences in emissions between the two everything else being equal.

:arrow:
Anybody have that little animation that has something to do with beating a dead horse? I think I'm going to need it.

[lyeinyoureye]

Well, thanks to CA's new HD diesel emissions standards I can safely say that diesels these days have to conform to the same emissions standards in terms of g/hphr that diesel passenger vehicles had to around 1980. And the trucking industry ***ed and whined every step of the way.  :lol:

Anyway, when looking at emissions mileage isn't a big concern since emissions already take this into account due to measuring 'em in g/mile or g/km. For instance according to federal standards I could have a CB125 motorcycle that pulled 100mpg, three or four times what my gasoline car pulls, but at the same time emits five times more pollution per mile.

In terms of why VW made the TDIs electronic, my best guess is regulating NOx emissions since they would need active management given several inputs to do it effectively. From the POV of emissions, outside of those running rich, NOx emissions are where diesels pollute more than SI vehicles, so a catalyst is needed to clean up emissions in the usual sense. I think CA's pressure on the HD diesel industry actually helped push a lot of the research we're seeing today. When gasser emissions started ratcheting up the first systems were god awful. Who in their right mind thought a separate pump dumping air into the exhaust stream so the cat would work was a good idea? But these days we have all sorts of fancy and really basic/clean ways that result in clean emissions. My truck's engine bay is a maze of vacuum tubing and valves, but my grandfather's newer car is nice and sparse w/ far fewer emissions to boot.

[Tintin]

The emission control with E-tdi vs M-tdi has very little to do with the amount of fuel injected, it is relatively easy to adjust an M-pump at this level, like libby said.

The major problem with the DI engine, especially with high RPM range engine, is to adjust the timing properly, and yet, one must know the E-tdi timing maps, otherwise you can only adjusted it roughly, there is no bench test value for DI VW engine.

If you install a new timing belt on a E-tdi,  you will find 15000km later that the timing has moved from 1.00mm to 0.70mm (timing belt stretch)  but the ECU compensate for the wear and always keep correct the timing curve, since DI engine are very very sensitive for the timing, with M-tdi pump you have to re-adjust the timing often.

How about the timing belt strech during running, the pump is harder to rotate with cold fuel compared to hot fuel, E-tdi can compensate to keep the timing, but not M-tdi.

More and more example.............

M-pump (although it is stuck adjustment) is a very good compromise to get running a TDI if there is no possibility of installing the ECU,  the power output and emission can be the same as ECU controled, but not constant without maintenance,  you can dynoed 180hp with M-pump without smoke, and two mont later you make only 140hp with smoke........

[arb]

Fairweather, I'm wondering if you could comment on what you believe is(are) the reason(s) that VW installed a complete computer controlled engine management system on their TDI engines?

I can certainly comment on it. You would think that all the R&D and production involved with the TDI would get us better emissions, better mileage , and greater reliability but that isn't necessarily the case from what I can decipher from posts on mileage of the 09s vs. older models.

That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)

To use an example that I read about today, the model T got 25 mpg and Ford's average mpg is currently less than that. Yes more power is available but is that all you get for millions of R&D dollars and 100 years? Seems quite pathetic to me.

Well, this is a very bad mis-quote. The Model T had a 20 hp engine, a top speed of 40 mph, was 1200 pounds, and had NO side windows !! If you scaled down our IDI to 20 hp ( 1 cylinder ?) and put it into a 1200 pound car that could only go 40 mph, I am certain the mpg would be phenomenal. Also, Ford sells the new Fiesta diesel that gets 76 mpg on the free way !!

Also, in the US, the new Ford hybrids next year will beat the Toyota and Honda hybrids in mpg and equal the Toyota in JD Powers quality. Sorry Honda, they beat you now.

[lyeinyoureye]

That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)

What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?

[arb]

That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)

What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?

They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.

Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.

In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.

I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.

[jackbombay]

Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)

  Over how long of a period of time? Talk on TDI club is that regeneration doesn't use much fuel and happens pretty infrequently.

  The low MPGs 09 owners are reporting are a bit baffling, according to VW,

Best-efficiency-point ALH rotary pump TDI = 197 g/kWh

Best-efficiency-point DPF-equipped common-rail TDI = 204 g/kWh and that's at a higher RPM and load setting.

That's what's in it. These numbers are from VW.

  Although the 09's are huge compared to the MK4s and heavier, but the MPGs are still lower then one would expect.

[jtanguay]

That's easy, our EPA is against small diesel's here (from the horse's mouth) so they have deemed the carbon particles (soot) to be very bad if its from a small diesel (car) - Hence the DPF captures this until burn-off where its converted at the expense of many litters of fuel into CO2 & water (from the fuel)

What? Where does the EPA say they're against small diesels?

They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.

Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.

In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.

I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.

very interesting stuff... i hope they all go to hell (EPA & the big 3)

[arb]

  Although the 09's are huge compared to the MK4s and heavier, but the MPGs are still lower then one would expect.

Very much so... the 09' is a beast compared to the earlier cars... My first MK1 had manual everything and no a/c - got over 50 mpg :-)

[Typrus]

We get 50mpg out of our eTDI 1Z motor. First gen TDI in USA and it gets better fuel economy in a heavier car with much higher performance than many here are claiming out of their 80's 1.6L's.
I'm not flaming at aall. I love the older cars. I personally find something almost magical about them. They have personality where few new cars do.

But here's a more fun kicker for you-
With a 40% or so bigger turbo, larger nozzles, newer ECU with aggressive chipset, and still cruising the factory exhaust, intake, and intercooler, with me driving (I eat tires for lunch and love the color red if you catch me) gets 46mpg. Worst I can get it to do (bumping around town with mad accel constantly) is about 42. Its my folks car, and both of them pretty consistently get right around 50mpg.
Heres the fun part to that. We've owned the car since it had about 30k miles on it (it has roughly 200k more now lol) and as long as it had good filters, good fuel, and inflated tires (I go 5PSI past max recommended on every vehicle, unless the weight comes up near the max rated, then I back it down to right at max pressure) it has always gotten 40-49mpg. This is in a 96 sedan Passat. A tiny bit heavier than a A1 or A2.

I have a buddy with an 02 New Beetle with the ALH TDI. As long as his VNT isn't sticky (annoying little buggers) and he also has good filters, good fuel, and inflated tires, he'll get 40-55.

Now don't ask about BEW's or the Passat TDI that ran for a year or 2.

Now here's another interesting thing. I had read about a couple that bought a new TDI Jetta and toured the 48 contigeous United States, putting something like 10,000 miles on the car, and they averaged 58mpg. Thats pretty danged impressive. What'd they do for such mileage? Smileage at that point (lol). They just said they used good defensive driving. 65mph or so, follow with appropriate distance, coast to a stoplight, not speed up to then slam the brakes. Avoid mad acceleration and braking, you know, obvious stuff.

I've seen the 09. Its pretty. It purrs. It gets. Haven't asked the dealership exactly what they are averaging (its a dedicated test drive vehicle) but I heard some of the guys saying it was getting "Better than they expected" whatever that means.

I haven't done much research on it either. No idea things like what kind of turbo it has, how its common rail is set up, etc.



Another thing-
Complete combustion of a hydrocarbon chain in an atmosphere of Oxygen results in Carbon DiOxide, and DiHydrogen Monoxide (H20!)
So you can't avoid CO2 emissions.
Heres the thing- cold spots create incomplete hydrocarbon combustion, hot spots generate massive heat that allows Nitrogen and Oxygen to fuse. NOx. Other functions in the combustion chamber create things like Carbon Monoxide and the likes.
The best way to generate more complete combustion beyond swirling, proper fuel atomization, etc, would be to generate perfectly uniform chamber temperatures, from less than a micron off of the cylinder wall, piston crown, head surface, valves, etc to the center of the chamber/bowl. No cold spots, hot spots, perfectly uniform temperatures. Then you incorporate perfect swirl patterns that perfectly distribute the fuel mix in the air everywhere in the chamber.

Needless to say thats hard to do.


Now you introduce exhaust restrictions and turbulations, EGR's, Cats and more Cats, DPF's, more mufflers, etc. Engine has to work harder to pump a unit of exhaust out. Intake restrictions come in. Has to work harder to get air in.


Personally, I'd like to see a 09 TDI perform with no cat, no DPF, no EGR, as little intake and exhaust restriction as possible. Emissions higher? Duh. More power? Very likely. Better mileage? Probably.
Maybe I'll buy one and put it in a gokart like the 1.5 IDI will get.... Hmmmm.... Insulate the ECM... (off on a tangent)


I am not an engineer. I am not an expert. I only know so much. But this seems to make sense to me.

BTW, we seem to have pretty good control on the 1Z? Go talk to people who know what they are doing tuning them. Charlie Migliore perhaps? KERMATDI.

[blackdogvan]

The part that always blows me away are the e-tdi ECU reprograms or aftermarket chips that boost HP and oftern result in better mileage, WTF??? Are emissions paying the price there??

An interesting comparison is Harley Davidson who purposely sells drasticly de-tuned motors so they can sell HP upgrade options. Oh I may digress...

[jackbombay]

The part that always blows me away are the e-tdi ECU reprograms or aftermarket chips that boost HP and oftern result in better mileage, WTF??? Are emissions paying the price there??

  Typically tuners advance the timing some to get the increase in MPGs, and that does increase NOx...

[lyeinyoureye]

They say it with regulations that are not approved by law makers, but some un-named bureaucrat who posts the ever increasing rules for small diesels - Currently the air exiting the TIER2-BIN5 cars in America must be cleaner than the air entering the air cleaner.

I don't think T2B5 over the FTP tests is cleaner than the ambient average in the U.S. If you can provide proof of this I'm all for it, but unless we're talking about the port of LA with emissions from bunker fuel in ships and thousands of idling rigs I don't think it's the case.

Yet, EPA allows LARGE diesels to pump to pump out tons of NOx and soot. That's why your 18 wheelers and dump trucks are still bellowing black smoke at the stop light.

The EPA and CARB held auto diesels to the same standards gassers did so they could rule out all other emissions sources when going after HD diesels. If they didn't and went after gross polluters, what they're doing now, then the companies they're going after could tie them up in court for years, maybe decades. It's not that the EPA is fine and dandy w/ gross pollution from semis, it's that they had to go after them last because they would fight the most.

In these hard times, don't you think the Big 3 would sell in the US their small VERY high mpg diesel cars here they already sell to the rest of the world ? EPA will not allow this.

That has nothing to do w/ the EPA. VW sells their diesels at maybe ~$1k over MSRP compared to a similarly equipped gasoline model, and half of that $1k is probably due to the higher costs of a diesel engine, so maybe an extra $500 for the needed emissions equipment, not a huge premium.

The problem other manufacturers face is trying to get a piece of the pie VW has held for years at a time when people aren't looking to buy new cars and gas prices are through the floor while diesel prices are lagging somewhat. People aren't very likely to buy a diesel Focus from Ford for $16k compared to a gas version for $15k because gas is ~$1.20-1.60/gallon while diesel is still around $1.60-2/gallon. They would be paying a grand premium for a compact when gasoline prices are the lowest they've been in a half decade and diesel prices are still higher. Granted, it would probably get better mileage, but that's not much of a concern w/ sub $2/gallon gas. That's why car companies like Honda have delayed introducing their diesel versions over here.

I personally worked with a guy at Robert Bosch. He was doing a dog and phony show in Pontiac for auto insiders where we got to drive some of these diesel cars on a private lot (Former home of the Detroit Lions)... he had no problems getting these cars off ship with "M" plates, but the moment he tried to drive the diesel Smart car from Windsor into Detroit, the guys with guns were under strict orders from EPA to not allow such cars in unless there was permission and they were not going to stay in the US.

That's true of any vehicle w/ an engine that isn't EPA approved AFAIK. I can't even import a complete foreign vehicle for onroad use w/o EPA approval unless it's U.S. spec.

[jtanguay]

actually technically arp is right... the air going out of the car has to be cleaner than the air going in... when you factor in the air cleaner  :lol:

CO2 doesn't count as being 'dirt'.

people also don't realize that diesels make up for the higher fuel price in extra miles per gallon.  that and the fact that diesel engines generally last longer, means it is a great investment.  but there are so many uneducated people out there who don't know this.  they think they're comparing apples to apples with fuel prices, but they aren't. its more like.. apples to bananas.. and i'll take a banana anyday over an apple.  :lol: (no sexual reference intended  :roll:)

[arb]

An interesting comparison is Harley Davidson who purposely sells drasticly de-tuned motors so they can sell HP upgrade options. Oh I may digress...

In Europe, Mercedes does this too but is very open about it - "Oh, you want the first level of power increase - $2,000 extra, second level $4,000, and unrestricted engine output (max power) an extra $8,000." Remember, you can get diesel mercedes there for $20,000 new.