Non-power brakes?

[clbanman]

Did all VW's come with the vacuum assist brakes?  I'm used to older North American iron with power steering but manual brakes.  Is it possible to "downgrade" your brakes and would there be any advantage to doing so?  I'm thinking potential reduction in things that can go wrong.  Fewer parts, fewer potential issues.  Am I way off base or wasting my time?

[Turbinepowered]

I don't know if it means anything, but the donor engine for my diesel Fox came out of a '79 Rabbit that didn't have a vacuum pump. And I swear I cracked the original bolt holding the cap over the intermediate shaft end.

Had a neat little gear to drive the oil pump, a cap for the hole, the usual pump holder, and an o-ring seal.

[blkboostedtruck]

just unhook the hose going to the power booster and drive it around and see if you like it that way? i don't think you will!
but i know what you mean! i just bought a jeep and it has no powerbooster but i sure wish it did! the pedal is hard and does not stop hardly at all!
Duane

[clbanman]

Just disconnecting the booster isn't correct if the system is designed for vacuum assist.  There are usually differences in the design for leverage and hydraulic ratios  if the system is designed to be used without a vacuum boost.  It would be similar to disconnecting the belt to a power steering pump and thinking that's what manual steering feels like.

[gigaz2]

why would you take a beautifully engineered, low maintenance item and turn it into something that can kill you?

just upgrade your system, 236mm discs are only good for a unladen 1.3 in my view.

[lord_verminaard]

FYI Jake, FSPGTD on here, ran his autocrosser Rabbit with manual brakes.  Search for his posts and you'll probably find a few of them.  He did have an upgraded system and an adjustable proportioning valve but it was a manual system.

Brendan

[clbanman]

why would you take a beautifully engineered, low maintenance item and turn it into something that can kill you?

Well, for one,  while I haven't had any issues, I have seen numerous posts on this forum from guys who have had booster or vacuum pump problems, so potentially eliminating that.  I have absolutely no intention of turning this into something that can kill me, which is why I'm asking questions before I do anything (if I ever do).  I personally prefer the pedal feel on a properly set up manual brake system and feel that modulation and threshhold braking are easier for me to feel and control.  I have a 67 Ford Galaxie that I have no issues stopping with manual brakes, so a properly set up system could be simpler and possibly give me the feel I prefer.

[gigaz2]

ok, I know that for competition purposes the manual setup is preferred (VWM used it on the rally Golf and endurance Bora), and if well done its a matter of preference.

I was just trying to pass the message that brakes are one thing that has do be done properly or lives get at risk.
I also like the hard pedal feel, but I know that eventually my mother will need to borrow my car, and I doubt she will have enough force to use the brakes, or sensitivity to modulate them to avoid locking..

I decided for the opposite aproach: brake setup from a much bigger car (passat vr6) and a concealed switch to disable ABS and EDS when I want to burn some rubber.

[arb]

I'm keeping my power brakes on my 1.6 turbo Caravan build-up, but I switched the power steering out for a new manual rack & pinion. The PS uses much more energy than power brakes. Also, the caravan is a tad larger than the VW.

[Vincent Waldon]

FYI Jake, FSPGTD on here, ran his autocrosser Rabbit with manual brakes.  Search for his posts and you'll probably find a few of them.  He did have an upgraded system and an adjustable proportioning valve but it was a manual system.

Brendan

My understanding is that disc brakes pretty much need a brake booster to be of any use since the calipher pistons provide very little mechanical advantage (tiny lever effect) unlike drum brakes where the slave cylinder acts against long shoes (big lever effect)

People that I know that remove the brake booster also convert back to front drums... as was available on the early Rabbits.  

Dunno if that's what Jake did... but he might have done.  Haven't followed competitive rallying for a while now so maybe they've figured it out with disks as well.

[TedV]

If you want manual brakes on a VW, just find a manual setup from a Mk1 Rabbit or Jetta.  17mm master cylinder, the push rod to the master is on the brake pedal at a different pivot point.  If you have the old bentley manuals they will show you the dimension differences.

Or, you could make a twin master setup using wilwood or tilton masters with a threaded balance bar like on a race car.

I'm not sure what setup Jake has on his FSP rabbit.  My SM turned FSP Scirocco lost the booster and went manual to loose the weight and get a more consistent pedal.  No vacuum  from a gas motor at WFO throttle.  Diesel will have vacuum to operate the booster no matter what.  Curious how much power is taken from the motor to produce that vacuum tho.  Competitive autocrossers do stuff different than daily drivers.  Best pedal feel I've driven used a 22mm master with booster (like 16V or late 80's-90 cabrio) steel braided lines and good brake pads.  Even better than that was a Mk4 Jetta, all stock.

[jtanguay]

makes sense... you just need a different pivot point for more leverage, and a smaller master cylinder.  because you will need more travel to get the same movement in the calipers/cylinders.

[burn_your_money]

Chevettes came with non assist brakes and they have front calipers (I think)

My brothers seems to stop just fine, you definitly can tell it isn't power assist though

[jtanguay]

i think theres an added security benefit to it... what if your power assisted brakes suddently went off??? either from a vacuum leak, booster failure, or engine shut down?

[burn_your_money]

The booster is designed to "assist" 2 or more pedal applications once the engine is off, or if the vacvuum pump exploded