Non-power brakes?

[vanbcguy]

Do you still have the old style diaphragm pump? If so that's your problem.

If you think for any reason that your vacuum pump isn't getting driven properly then you have bigger problems than brakes. The oil pump and vacuum pump share a drive gear, if the vacuum pump isn't turning then the oil pump isn't either.

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[jaed_43725]

vanbcguy: I have the rotary vane pump. I rebuilt it and it benched fine. Interesting bit of info there. I didnt know they shared the same gear. I thought they were on the same IM shaft though. The gears looked good. But the shaft that turns the gears may be an issue. My oil light flashes and yells until the car is warmed up. Still I would prefer to put in a manual brake setup. If you have any info on doing that I am all ears.

[Renax]

I agree with vanbcguy, check if the vaacum pump is in good condition. (Or just swap it) then check vaacum system again.
I have 4-5meters of hoses and connectors between pump and brakebooster, and yet when i checked the system still were under vaacum 3 weeks after the car is stopped, thats the way it should be.

But if you refuse to fix a good reliable system then go ahead, i have driven a Passat G60 Syncro with non-functional power brakes, no problem for me, Polo 86c as someone mentioned in this thread i was surpriced when i found out it was manual.
My guess is that the sceptics in this thread has had generally bad breaks and blame the no power assist part.

My friend needs power assist breaks, he also needs a cane for walking, healthy young men should have no problem locking 4 wheels of a 2ton van witout power brakes! As long as the rest of the system is in good order...

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[Renax]

The oil pump is driven off the vaacum pump, if you take out the vaacum pump you have no oil pressure...

If your oilpressure and vaacum is problematic at the same time it might be the pulley are slipping at the belt, tighten the belt a little?

The rotary vaacumpump also needs oilpressure to seal correctly, but it should not be a big problem... (because if you are that low on oil pressure the issue won't be stopping the car...)

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[jaed_43725]

Renax: I already checked the vacuum pump and vacuum lines. I know that stuff is fine. Non-functional power brakes are drastically different than proper manual brakes.
The oil pump and vacuum pump it seems are driven off the same shaft or gear, perhaps someone can clarify that. But there is an IM shaft that drives them both which is driven by the belt. You can safely eliminate the vacuum pump and the oil pump works fine. If you ever check out a 8v you will see it has the same setup, but just a cover over the vacuum pump port.
My belt is fine, I check it on a regular basis.
I am well aware of the oil needed to seal the vacuum pump. Its not as low of oil volume as you might think. I can tell if my oil gets low by how the brakes react.

So if anyone can tell me what parts I will need that would be a great help.

[vanbcguy]

Renax: I already checked the vacuum pump and vacuum lines. I know that stuff is fine. Non-functional power brakes are drastically different than proper manual brakes.
The oil pump and vacuum pump it seems are driven off the same shaft or gear, perhaps someone can clarify that. But there is an IM shaft that drives them both which is driven by the belt. You can safely eliminate the vacuum pump and the oil pump works fine. If you ever check out a 8v you will see it has the same setup, but just a cover over the vacuum pump port.
My belt is fine, I check it on a regular basis.
I am well aware of the oil needed to seal the vacuum pump. Its not as low of oil volume as you might think. I can tell if my oil gets low by how the brakes react.

So if anyone can tell me what parts I will need that would be a great help.

You absolutely cannot remove the vacuum pump and have the oil pump turn.  There is no gear on the oil pump shaft at all:



The drive gear that mates with the IM shaft is on the vacuum pump:



The tab on the oil pump shaft fits in to a slot on the bottom of the vacuum pump.

The 8V gas engines use a different intermediate shaft that spins the opposite direction and has the gear teeth cut on the opposite diagonal.  They don't have a blockoff cover, they have a distributor sitting where the vacuum pump is on the diesels.  The distributor drives the oil pump on the gassers just like the vacuum pump does on the diesels..

[jaed_43725]

vanbcguy: OK. Thanks for the education on that. I did not know it was so complicated. Thats that German engineering for ya. And the pics help.

So essentially I would just get rid of the vacuum lines for the brakes but still use the vac pump for heat controls. I still deem it a worthy endeavor.

And the question remains. Which MC do I put on and do I in fact have to change the pedal cluster? And what are the aftermarket options?

[Renax]

Ignore the fact that you said you have rebuilt the pump and checked its functioning without knowing how it works.
Ignore the fact that if the vaacum pump, pipes and brakebooster is in good working order but this still doesn't work your engine has serious issues!
Even ignore that your buzzer of doom goes off confirming that your engine has serious issues.


In this thread the answers you seek already is written, complete brake setup from mk1 golf/rabbit/jetta without brake booster, or make your own setup (which is what i would do, because the mk1 system is a bit weak)
To put in a custom master brake cylinder is easy enough, just weld up a bracket to hold it and connect to brake pedal. Higher for better brakes, lower for worse...

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[jaed_43725]

Renax: You can check a vacuum pump without knowing 100% that it drives the oil pump. Its really easy, you see, you just pull off the hose and put your thumb on it, or use a vacuum gauge (which I did).
What pipes? The brake booster could be the culprit. Or that stupid check valve. And the buzzer going off does not mean I have serious issues. I know for a fact I have good oil pressure. Its just how these old cars are, do some searching you will see.

After doing a bit more research and price checking it seems that trying to fix the antiquated system it has is the best option. I will replace the check valve and the booster. If this does not work, then I will rebuild the entire vacuum system. This is driven by price. And the fact that the guy who makes the adapters to put on a Wilwood MC will not reply to anything.

[Renax]

You can check it, but you said.

I have the rotary vane pump. I rebuilt it and it benched fine.

But nevermind.

The buzzer going off means you have serious issues, thats what its there for!
"Its just how these old cars are" well, then i have to go fix mine, none of my 3 1.6 TD is setting of the buzzer, cold or hot.

There can be many reasons for the buzzer to go off, all worth your time fixing.
Even if its the system malfunctioning, because then you have no oil pressure warning...


I think that fixing the original system is the best option, but you know people have lives? the adapterguy might answer next week or next month.

If you want better brakes without vaacum get a ABS unit to hook up, my friend has a MK2 td with abs, then there also is a special lid with a gear instead of the vakumpump.
You don't need abs sensors, the powerbooster will work anyways:-)
This is also practical cause when your engine fails because of low oilpressure you can tow the car and still have power brakes:-)

(Yea, the last bit is tested, the rope snapped because i didn't think i had power breaks...)

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[jaed_43725]

Renax: The buzzer does not mean I have serious issues. Its a common problem. Also my car has been checked over multiple times for this by one of the top VW performance shops in the US. So argue with them.

Sure people have lives. They are also connected by that nifty gadget often kept in the pocket. I like to call mine an LG G2. Some like to call theirs iPhones.

Do you have a link for this ABS thing? Since its not a hydroboost system nor is it vacuum. I would need to see pics of in order to determine exactly how it works. Because ABS by itself just creates a pulse. It has nothing to do with what force is used for the booster.

[Renax]

"Its a common problem" well, yes, but having a flat tire is also a common problem, but the fact that its common doesn't mean it ain't a problem!

Many people has work phones and work mails not checked in the weekends...


Its not the abs part you want, its the electronic brakebooster that comes with it...
I don't have a link because i have never read anything of this online, just seen on some cars.

Its still a lot less work to just fix your existing system...

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[clbanman]

To update, no, I did not ever go to manual brakes.   At the time I asked it was a theoretical question and I was just curious about what was available for VW's.   At this time I don't have any VW's so no current plans to explore this further.

As far as all the guys who said I wouldn't be able to stop the car in an emergency - you did notice that I have a 67 Ford Galaxie with manual brakes?    I can pull it down from 100 mph no problem.    I have a Fairmont with a 302 that has manual brakes.   Works great and I really prefer the pedal feel.   In my opinion power brake systems deaden the pedal feel.   Just pulling the vacuum booster off is not what I was talking about.  It's a system.   Check out the Brembo racing brake catalogue http://www.brembo.com/it/Auto/Racing/Prodotti-Competizioni/Documents/CATALOGO_BREMBO_RACING.pdf- not a power booster to be found anywhere.   

Absolutely, if there is a problem in your system, diagnose and fix it.   I've driven vehicles with brakes that were OK in normal situations but eventually you'll get into one where you want brakes at their best.   Building a better braking system is always good, but just keep in mind that no matter what the brakes can handle, they can't do anything more than what those 4 little patches of rubber that contact the road can handle.

[jaed_43725]

Renax: Like I said I have had one of the best VW tuning shops in the US check it out. They did every test and changed out the sensors, dug into the engine and the whole nine. And you know what they found? Nothing. No low pressure, properly working sensors, etc. The only thing that it could be is the cluster panel. And that is not a serious issue by any means.

I will be replacing the check valve and the booster first. That will probably do the trick. If not then I go to other measures.

clbanman: Thanks for following up.
I have had cars including a 71' Cuda with manual brakes that stopped great. I know its a system, and you cant just use any MC for it, it has to be designed for it.

Also I have some pretty good rubber patches.

[clbanman]

Check out the info at http://www.gowesty.com/library_article.php?id=810.
It's for a Westy, but I assume the logic is the same for all VW's???    Seems to explain the problem you're having.