Open Letter to Prothe

[RabbitGTDguy]

Yah...

Just goes to show how much the idea of "quality" in our world has changed... Cofab really used to have a decent reputation, etc. Aircooled wise...EMPI (like i said) is a great example. Used to be awesome quality stuff...I know guys still running some original EMPI performance parts...and now there stuff....well....

Eh.

Joe

[fuslit]

For what it's worth.

An example of what I was trying to bring up about quality of a part being sold.

Alot of 'brand name' tool manufactures have moved the majority of their manufacturing to third world countries.

http://www.garagejournal.com/forum/showthread.php?t=2232

That thread shows some examples of tool manufactures you used to buy that were made in the usa. Now they have been bought out and/or are now being manufactured elsewhere. It also has a long running debate to the point of manufacture quality and brand name, etc etc..

So, in many cases not only has the manufacturing been shipped out to country's with less stringent labor standards, the quality of the tools themselves have fallen at the cost of the established brand name.

(I'll leave Joes point about safety conditions for employee's out of the picture, for this response but it should be something people are aware of...)

In a global economy many company's are making similar decisions to cut costs. Example? http://www.goulds.com/ Gould pumps, used to be made completely in the USA (the original foundry is in the town I live in)

One of their engineer’s that we are friends with just got back from China building a huge new facility there. Where all (or most) production of their product is now overseas to china. Their pumps used to be known for reliability, longevity, and availability of parts.

My aunt's well pump just went (a gould pump), and the plumber that replaced it said Goulds pumps now are junk, plastic impellers where metal should be, motors that burn out, hard to get parts etc. So she spent more for a pump that would last longer, have parts available for it, etc.

The point? Well, Goulds had a great brand name at one point. Now, production has been moved overseas and quality of their product cheapened for a better bottom line. Unless you know the history though you would think “Gould pump, good American made pump will last for ever, etc etc.”

So, it's not just related to just car parts, it affects all manufactures.

While I mostly agree that you do get what you pay for. I also think that sometimes if you don’t do research and ‘buy’ based off a product that used to be good. You will end up overpaying for a perceived 'good brand' name which might not keep the same stringent standards that it once did to compete in the global economy.

Another personal example, even though Craftsman tools are made in the USA, I feel their quality has slipped and been lessened over the years to compete with the low cost tool alternatives. I would rather pay more for something (SK, BluePoint, Matco, Snapon) that has a tighter tolerance policy on wrenches which will fit a bolt tighter and break less.

Craftsman have a lifetime warrenty, but when I'm working on a car, if I snap the only wrench I have (even though it's got a replacement) that's time money and energy I need to spend to get it. I would rather pay more  to get a tool that will not snap, or not snap as soon (i.e. higher quality.)

So, my point of seeing a point of failure comparison on parts in question will illuminate and eliminate many questions that are raised about the 'quality' of parts and help people make an informed decision about what they wish to spend their money on.

But as with anything these days you need to do some research on what your buying and what the failure rate of said product is.

my 2 cents.

-Todd

[zukgod1]

Well put Pete,
I agree this board is a great place to discuss our projects.

Off we go...

[RabbitGTDguy]

But for the people who don't want to pay $2800 for a new TDI pump at the dealership (I got an email this week from a customer), or even $1000 online, I am trying to be the best alternative.  Only time will tell if I have succeeded or not.

And this is the part that is yet to be seen. If you see it as an argument, then your not reading correctly. With the service support and information that you provide to your customers and/or potential customers...I would seriously question your "best alternative" notion. So...its something to improve on and supply to your customers when they have questions.

In the end it is about quality...and if your willing to sacrifice quality in the name of the dollar...then thats your perogative.  It will be a regret somewhere down the line.  Otherwise, provide the proof of quality and dig into your product a bit more so its more competitive with others if you really want to be seen as the "best alternative". No one wants your vendor list...but people do want answers on origin and quality based on all the above factors that we have mentioned at one point or another.

I personally when building a motor (and working on a seriously tight budget) would rather push my timeline back in the name of saving up for a more quality built, reputable part for which the vendor stands behind vs. just buying something I don't know much about and the vendor seems shady on answers...or just doesn't answer them. Still, through all of this to this day my inquiry about the pistons that prothe has is still unanswered and that just rings TOO true for me in so many ways and there is instead a nice set of OS Nurals sitting here ready to go in. Did it stink to have to pay a little bit more for them? Yes... Did pushing the time back hurt some too... yes. However, I'm impressed and comfortable with the quality of the product and I know WHAT I am putting in my motor and have the manufacturer able to back things up in the end (as well as the vendor) if something went wrong.

Dissappointing that you still don't answer Prothe...but to me it is an expression of true character that I think many others here just don't see. It is interesting where you hop into/out of conversations among many other things here an in your business.

Ah yes....on we go. This has been quite an impressive thread and I've been surprised with the number of emails and PM's that I got regarding this too. Its interesting to see where the members of the forum are at with things but those of us that have been around for a while know where business' that have this philosophy end up...

Woo-Woo...

Joe

[jimfoo]

All I will add is that I would probably not have a VW diesel in my car right now if it wasn't for Prothe. I wouldn't have been able to afford $1000+ for a new TDI head, $450 for new pistons, whatever a new 10mm head costs, etc.
It would have been cheaper to buy a whole new engine than rebuild my AAZ. It shouldn't have to be that way. I can see getting the premium parts for performance  builds, but for the only slightly modded engine I am more than happy with aftermarket. Granted I don't have many miles on them yet, but my pistons seemed fine after getting slightly beat by my exhaust valves. No one is holding a gun to anyone's head to buy a specific brand part. People will buy according to what matters most to them. If they end up getting a crap part, lesson learned, they will buy elsewhere. The thing is you will never know until you try a part.

[burnt_servo]

this has nothing to do with prothe  , but the variable quality of " name brand parts "......

everyone one here is familar with the  brand name "moog "  aren't they ....  i;ve never had aproblem with them , UNTIL i needed some ball joints for my vw ....

put a set in  , and a couple months latter when i put on my good tires , i had a wheel alinment ..... they said the ball joints where wore out .
i thought the shop was trying to scam me and i got pissed off and left .

next day , got under the car and checked things out ... yep ball joints are gone ...

put a new set in ... again moog  ,  got wheel alinment .

one year latter , replaced tie rod ends , and struts  ,  got wheel alinment ..... same story from shop , ball joints are gone south .

replaced with another moog set ( that is all any of the parts stores had in stock locally )  kept bill this time ....

about a  year latter put new tires on  and car was pulling to one side  . put it up on the hoist , both ball joints and one tie rod ends where worn out , the other tie rod end was loose .

went in to my local parts place and found  a company out of italy that make the various joints , BUT WAS WARNED OF THE LOW QUALITY OF THE PARTS ,  they where 1/3 the price of the moog parts .
took about a week for the joints to come in .
that was 2 years ago , and just went over my car last night  with a fine tooth comb , and the joints are still nice and tight .

took the worn out moog parts back , and after a month of or so , finally did get my money back out of them.  moog was trying to claim  abuse and neglect on the part drtiver of the car , and where trying to  get out of refunding me on their faulty parts .

[RabbitGTDguy]

I believe if you look back...it is Prothe's description (or lack there of) and describing his parts on par with OE parts, quality, etc. with little information given.
So...they are related...

Jim,
Thats great for you and if your happy...thats great. He'll need "testimonies" of his customers like you in the end after you've had a chance to really run the motor, etc. If I remember correctly, you haven't had much of a chance to even run the motor too much yet...so, time will tell whether your cost savings will benefit in the long run.

And...just for the fun of it. Some reading...

http://forums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=199567&page=2&highlight=Prothe

There is more than that...took some digging, but you'll find additional info. as just an example.

Joe

[jimfoo]

Well, yet another reason to run a VNT. I don't think there are any cheap copies out. :lol:  Glad I rebuilt mine, finding used parts.

[jtanguay]

As far as buying cheap Chinese parts, I'm not afraid to give them a try. I got a couple of window regulators for this same '98 Jetta. They were made in Taiwan. The price was right and they fit perfect. I now have four working windows. When I started, all four were inoperable.

sucks that his turbo didn't exactly fit right, but oh well.  It's not an oem fit.  new units are what? $1300? rebuilt $1000?  how much is Prothe selling it for? $250 (just the center unit and not exhaust manifold)

for Prothe's price you can buy 4 of the center units and probably last at least twice as long  :lol:

i'm really interested in his T3 turbo and what kind of abuse it can withstand...

[rallydiesel]

Geez, just lock this thread already. It's just going in circles now. The people who want to buy from prothe will continue to and the people who don't want to will continue not to.

 :roll:

[RabbitGTDguy]

I think it is interesting how he continues to skate myke w's orginal question which I continuely refer to...with the aid of others...

as to going in circles...it will and if proof isn't convincing enough then really...just do not know what to say...

do what you like and like what you do I suppose...

it is a very small group of support that has very limited factual information...so many others have just stayed quiet and that is fine but I can gurantee the pool of buyers that will trust him here will be small...

joe

[Tintin]

I'm in the mechanic since several years, now i have my garage and i do not repair only vw, but all car and small truk, there is 2-3 pieces quality, dealer and jobber, generally jobber are great replacement parts, not all, but since a few years there is on internet a VERY bad quality parts, a real crap,  I bought some of it to try to save money,  loll..... It's good for the garbage.

While looking at the Prothe's web page, I see a lot of these crap parts,  like the head gasket he sells It's a piece of paper with some grey color glued paint with a sort metal o-ring,   good for the garbage.

Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.

I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump,  I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........

[RabbitGTDguy]

Jimfoo,  give me 3-4 months, and I'll have complete VNT turbos for both the VNT15 and the KP39A!

This post is going back and forth, and to a certain degree, it isn't about me.  I'm not the only person on the internet selling aftermarket parts at a discounted price.  I'm only the target, because I focus on VW Diesel and have a lot of the hard to find expensive parts.

The question about aftermarket parts will long outlive me.

err....blah... sure...ok...

Only one posting claims though...and have I haven't seen a lot of other diesel "junk" out there...as most vendors are straight forward and you know what your dealing with.

Joe

[Pat Dolan]

Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.

I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump,  I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........

Almost a rhetorical question - because someone will buy it (as you did).

[RabbitGTDguy]

Diesel pump parts are very poor metal quality, I know, I already bought it.

I'm affraid about these tendency of poor quality around the world, It's a plague, It'a 50 years back jump,  I do not understand how people can sell this type of bad quality parts, It's to laugh at people........

Almost a rhetorical question - because someone will buy it (as you did).

Do you think Pat that the above comment that you made makes it ok? Or wouldn't you rather have a bit of education behind what you are buying, know what you are buying and learn from others mistakes regarding it. So that your hard earned project bucks go towards something of more quality than just the best bargain basement price out there.

Guess what I am saying is that your comment is more than fair...and is VERY true...but, does that make it right?

Joe