Author Topic: Open Letter to Prothe  (Read 34879 times)

Reply #15May 19, 2008, 12:10:10 pm

myke_w

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Open Letter to Prothe
« Reply #15 on: May 19, 2008, 12:10:10 pm »
Quote from: "prothe"


I will not give you a list of all of my vendors that I have spent thousands of hours and tens of thousands of dollars creating.  Just like I don't ask you what the name and telephone number of your contact at KKK Turbos is.


I wouldn't expect you to give up your contact list.. I wouldn't give mine up either.. And like I said, I deal with importers not manufacturers..

And I didn't imply you were being mean.. EDITED I am just making an inquiry.

Don't get me wrong, I also appreciate that some parts on your site are entirely unavailable otherwise, like turbo gaskets and the like.. I have no idea who you get to make them but you definitely do some serious sleuthing. Some part is better than no part right?

Quote
Please don't take offense to what I've written as I do think that providing a cheaper alternative product is not in it's self a bad thing. (it's what drew me to vw's in the first place) But providing a product and not marking it as 'non-oem' is misleading at best and w/out a verifiable test behind it something I would be pretty pissed about if I bought a product thinking it was replacement for OEM and it failed prematurely.

Personally I am interested in seeing product comparison between oem and what you sell.


Ditto.

I was simply inquiring about brand..  country of origin..

I think it's a reasonable request.. especially for parts with bearings, fine tolerances, moving parts etc..  

I doubt anybody will argue an oil return line's viability.. but a turbo is a high precision part..

 :wink:
Contact me for hard to find for idi and tdi parts


Reply #16May 19, 2008, 10:19:35 pm

burn_your_money

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Open Letter to Prothe
« Reply #16 on: May 19, 2008, 10:19:35 pm »
This thread is going downhill and will be locked if it gets out of hand. Please keep it civil with no personal attacks or degrading comments.

I know many of you have strong feelings on this topic and want to discuss them, so please keep it a discussion.

Please read what you have written before hitting submit to make sure it is appropriate.

Thank you
Tyler

Reply #17May 20, 2008, 11:14:13 am

RabbitGTDguy

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« Reply #17 on: May 20, 2008, 11:14:13 am »
Tyler,

I appreciate your comments and what you are saying about the thread going downhill. However, on the other hand...I think it is important for the forums mods to review potential vendors and their viability on this site. I'm not going to into my history with the forum, Marc and I's original discussions regardin the creation of these forums (former hostboard), but...I can tell you that this thought and these ideas crossed mine mind before and I think are things that are viable comments and information that should be provided by "vendors" when selling their products here to maintain the integrity of what we have here.

There are other vendors who provide information, back their products, etc. and Prothe is one that I would question to the highest degree. If you would like to speak about this personally I am more than willing to...but nothing written here is "new news" or unfounded in anyway. I think it is also where the feedback forum will become very viable once people start using it on a more regular basis.

Anyways...

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #18May 20, 2008, 07:31:12 pm

jtanguay

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« Reply #18 on: May 20, 2008, 07:31:12 pm »
Prothe isn't even a vendor here.  he's not even using this site to promote his products.  it's all just by word of mouth and good old ebay.  let's discuss about his products and their potential reliability, but not of him personally.

it almost sounds like some people are losing their shirts (from lack of sales) the way they talk about Prothe and his cheap parts.


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Reply #19May 20, 2008, 10:57:23 pm

Quantum TD

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« Reply #19 on: May 20, 2008, 10:57:23 pm »
Hmm. Not much too add but, cept I too am curious about the origins of the items. Not so much for sales purposes, just that I'm intrigued by some of his parts, but will go with a higher quality if it's a matter of Chinese parts.

I agree that that China does not automatically mean poor quality, but if the stuff is all just generic crap, why buy? I know that there are people out there looking for a quick cheap fix, then others looking for a lifetime of quality (an a$$ for every seat as they say). If something is NLA at most suppliers, then it's time to either suck it up and buy China, or look harder for that rare part. Otherwise, I'll stick to the known parts.

I've asked prothe about his injection pumps, and he's been a bit cagey about them. He can't tell me if it's been properly calibrated or what brand seals are used, or where any of the replacement parts are made. He just says 'rebuilt'. That alone has me going to my local Bosch rebuilder paying $500 instead of $299. He also defends AMC heads, which are KNOWN crap (ask any head builder familiar with them: poor quality alloy). Not sure if that's the brand he sells, but those facts alone make me look to other sources.
 
Bottom line: countries of origin/ manufacturers would be nice to know(suppliers not necessary). Let the newbies do what they want. You gotta figure that no-one buys a 25+ year old diesel car because they're loose with the money. I doubt that prothe's business will be affected by this post, esp. since he's not a vendor here. For the 'veterans' looking to do it once and do it right, basic info (brand. etc) would probably help his sales: it's a courtesy that most parts sellers (even Autozone) provide for thier customers to help them decide what level of quality they want. If that info is not forthcoming, I'll just assume it's the lowest quality possible (but I'm happy to be corrected).

Reply #20May 20, 2008, 11:11:18 pm

rallydiesel

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« Reply #20 on: May 20, 2008, 11:11:18 pm »
I agree that it would be good to know the manufacturer and their specific guarantees, etc. I think he is a great source for certain hard to find parts or when just trying to get a beater on the road. Other things, like injection pumps, really need to have a high quality history. Apparently he doesn't even clean the outside of the pumps  :shock: . However I would definitely consider buying an AAZ pump from him for cheap and sending it over to Giles to work his magic.

I still think he is a great resource and will continue to buy (certain) parts from him.
2006 Jetta TDI - gtb1749v, Malone 2, Frank's Titan 2 cam, VR6 clutch....
1991 Jetta TD - sold :(
2001 Golf TDI - Son's
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Reply #21May 20, 2008, 11:18:40 pm

RabbitGTDguy

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« Reply #21 on: May 20, 2008, 11:18:40 pm »
Quote from: "Quantum TD"


I've asked prothe about his injection pumps, and he's been a bit cagey about them. He can't tell me if it's been properly calibrated or what brand seals are used, or where any of the replacement parts are made. He just says 'rebuilt'. That alone has me going to my local Bosch rebuilder paying $500 instead of $299. He also defends AMC heads, which are KNOWN crap (ask any head builder familiar with them: poor quality alloy). Not sure if that's the brand he sells, but those facts alone make me look to other sources.
 


This is EXACTLY the type of "run around" that I am talking about. Responses = vague...and precision parts...I'm sorry thats not cool.

Seperate from what you said Quantum TD (so not directed at your post)

I have to clarify my position on China...

No one insinuated that China parts = bad parts...however, there are different qualities of materials that come from there and PLEASE do not say that they will be the same quality to a OEM part. If you want to...and have that much faith...SHOW ME the comparison... otherwise...they are what they are.
I've heard of several seal failures re: pump seals he sells.... hydraulic heads from pumps seizing up (chinese heads...not Bosch) and I won't go further as its already been discussed...but sheez. Cheap is cheap guys...you def. get what you pay for and if someone doesn't question what kind of product they are getting at that price and on top of that the answers that they receive are not answered or completely run around...
your just asking for it.

I can't even go into the work condition, ethics, etc. of the whole thing. Thats another story.

I'll stick with reputable vendors, that accurately display their product origins, stand behind their products and won't give people either no answer, misleading answers or any of the above.

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #22May 21, 2008, 12:56:36 am

Pat Dolan

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« Reply #22 on: May 21, 2008, 12:56:36 am »
I am many years past being in the retail or wholesale parts biz, but these days I do spend a lot of time working on some very expensive stuff that is made in many countries - including China, Korea and Taiwan.

I don't know where Prothe is getting his stuff, but I can tell you with great certainty that there are good and bad parts supplies in mainland China, and that VW has been there longer than ANYONE else, and the aftermarket and OEM suppliers are all over the place.  In the parts biz, it is NOT a matter of "you get what you pay for".  It is more a matter of from MOST OEM sources, you will probably get a good part (for a hell of a lot more than it is really worth), or identified OEM suppliers (for a reasonable price), but you are definitely "on your own" without some kind of referrence as to who/what/where the manufacturer is.

Just a few on the "cheap Chinese" comments, though:  If you have flown on a new airliner or small biz jet lately, you are flying a lot of "cheap Chinese" parts.  On the ultra-expensive industrial stuff I work with, the very best manufacturers are Japanese, Korean and Taiwanese.  WESTERN Euro is on par, but US is just plain crap - and much more expensive crap than similar quality from Eastern Europe and India.  We are just starting to see the first big stuff from PRC now, and the jury is out on how good it will be.  BUT, the big guys from Taiwan, Japan, etc. all have many component factories in really cheap labour places such as Vietnam, Thailnad, Malasia etc. where their QA/QC can be fairly good.

I agree, though, that this is a VERY important discussion.  Those of us who have been in the trenches know the stories and the ropes, but for newbies, it is worth big bucks for them to learn from our experience because a load of parts for an engine can represent a significant part of their car budget.

There is nothing wrong with buying a no-brand, low buck part.  Just don't go screaming back to the supplier and the rest of us if it turns out to be sub-standard.  There is also no guarantee that if you buy the genuine OEM part directly from their dealer network (just thinking of decades of w/c VW door handles for instance) that you will get anything but pure garbage - in a fancy box.  There are few "absolute truths" in parts.
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Reply #23May 21, 2008, 07:27:18 am

RabbitGTDguy

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« Reply #23 on: May 21, 2008, 07:27:18 am »
Duplicate post....see below...
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Reply #24May 21, 2008, 07:28:00 am

RabbitGTDguy

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« Reply #24 on: May 21, 2008, 07:28:00 am »
Pat,

I would need to respectfully disagree. Taking "the word" on a supplier being an OEM supplier doesn't really mean its a "good product". I can think of a few VW OEM suppliers (again...talking product grade) that I wouldn't use because of the difference in the quality of the part they produce compared to their German counterpart.   I am an aircooled owner as well and there are a great number of lower level "OEM" parts out there that just don't cut it compared to the rest of the higher grade lot. For instance....I would be careful to question VW contracted Cofab (who is contracted out to KS pistons, aka Kolbenco).

You do in essence say that "you get what you pay for" with this comment...
 "There is nothing wrong with buying a no-brand, low buck part. Just don't go screaming back to the supplier and the rest of us if it turns out to be sub-standard."

However, I am in agreement with that comment itself (but it really does say that in essence). Also, with this day and age, be it newbie or veteran...good parts I just plain expensive and I think budgets are on anyones mind. If you are of the do-it-once and do-it-right philosophy...it might mean waiting a bit longer and saving up with certain bits, prioritizing, etc. to get to your end goal. I would never short change myself with a crap part only to have that money lost in the end. Part of good engine building, research into..., etc. is doing your homework on where your going to get you stuff...shopping around and digging for information about where your "stuff" is going to come from and what kind of quality to expect based on other peoples experiences.

"There is also no guarantee that if you buy the genuine OEM part directly from their dealer network (just thinking of decades of w/c VW door handles for instance) that you will get anything but pure garbage - in a fancy box."

I would def. agree with that comment in regards to the VW door handles! However, I think that was more pure design flaw than anything and the concern that I have with "parts" is vitally important, precision parts such as engine parts, internals, etc. I can't say that I have ever had a ill experience for instance with Goetze rings...and will not run anything but in the car. Remember Hillfolks thread on Total Seals ring process? They said they couldn't build a better ring (hence, mod that one). That to me is good news. Same goes with the pistons. After having my OS Nural's taken down to the shop for the final honing, etc. the mech. their said he seldom sees pistons of that kind of quality come into the shop. Granted, they do a lot of domestic motors....but what does that tell you about our own outsourcing... err...

Maybe we need to add to the catch...

"You get what you pay for if you so choose to buy it...but don't come crying back to me..."

There are probably few "truths" in auto parts...and the mark up has to be HUGE just about anywhere you buy from. However, I feel that much more comfortable buying a precision part, manufactured to OEM or better specifications from a reputable manufacture that turns out that type of quality on a daily basis.   Do I think that the worker at that factory will get a good portion of that end product? I doubt it... and I won't go into the labour issues.  

Show me the comparisons and I'll change my mind. Otherwise...and I'm on a budget as well...but I'll stick to the good stuff.

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #25May 21, 2008, 07:44:18 am

jtanguay

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« Reply #25 on: May 21, 2008, 07:44:18 am »
about the pump heads seizing up: Tintin was able to seize a 12mm BOSCH head, and completely destroy it.  now if the pump head was destroyed during *normal* use then yea it's a crap defective part.  

one thing for sure that i wouldn't buy non oem is the belt tensioner.  that should be common knowledge by now, and it seems nobody is bringing that up.  there's just been so many timing failures due to it.  it would be just like playing Russian roulette with your engine  :lol:


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Reply #26May 21, 2008, 10:50:01 am

Pat Dolan

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« Reply #26 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:01 am »
Joe:

We agree, for the most part.

I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).

As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes:  I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days.  There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse.  That's my point:  there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough?  IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in.  Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.
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Reply #27May 21, 2008, 10:50:45 am

Pat Dolan

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« Reply #27 on: May 21, 2008, 10:50:45 am »
Joe:

We agree, for the most part.

I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).

As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes:  I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days.  There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse.  That's my point:  there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough?  IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in.  Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.

PS: I take it the repetition was for emphasis?  (sorry couldn't resist)
lifetime VW enthusiast, racer, fixer, addict, etc.
'03 TDI Variant, MkII Golf Country, Mk1 and II Scirocco (gassers), a Vanagon aircooled, an Audi 2.0 TD waiting to become a Porsche TD (in my M471 924), FLD120/DDEC IV, Ford 7.3/450, Iveco D220 and some 6D14T Mitsus and a few more.

Reply #28May 21, 2008, 05:22:05 pm

RabbitGTDguy

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« Reply #28 on: May 21, 2008, 05:22:05 pm »
Quote from: "jtanguay"
about the pump heads seizing up: Tintin was able to seize a 12mm BOSCH head, and completely destroy it.  now if the pump head was destroyed during *normal* use then yea it's a crap defective part.  

one thing for sure that i wouldn't buy non oem is the belt tensioner.  that should be common knowledge by now, and it seems nobody is bringing that up.  there's just been so many timing failures due to it.  it would be just like playing Russian roulette with your engine  :lol:


True...its not just 12mm heads...I'll put you in the direction of TDIClub as I'm not going to drag dirt in to the thread here...but you'll find the answer without me going into more detail.
The 12mm head RPM limititations have been discussed in detail. However, I remember Martins head and it just wasn't a "normal" use problem that he had. Alot goes into the hydraulic pump head. You'll find info on bad camplates, snapped plungers and seizing of the non-BOSCH heads...and specifically...well, lets not go there...

Quote from: "Pat Dolan"
Joe:

We agree, for the most part.

I did not qualify WHO claimed a part to be OEM, but you are quite right: that is something for the manufacturer to declare, not a vendor (unless substantiated).

As far as Cofap (not Cofab if I remember right) goes:  I had nothing but perfect results from them in air cooled days.  There are still a couple of 1776 engines I built 25 years ago with Cofap cylinders that are being raced today (untouched) after years of street abuse.  That's my point:  there may indeed be a "better" OEM part, but just how good is good enough?  IMNO, if it gets the job done, doesn't break, priced right and is AVAILABLE, count me in.  Another Cofap comment though: I don't think Brazilian parts are anything near what they were 20 years ago.

PS: I take it the repetition was for emphasis?  (sorry couldn't resist)


Sorry about the double...it wasn't for emphasis...it was a double click on the submit button this morning as the forums seem to be slow today.

As for the spelling of "Cofab"...it is Cofab rings that I'm referring to...please see here.
http://www.alibaba.com/company/100078126.html

Eh...quality 20 years ago is much different than today and I'll hold to that.
Look at the former "EMPI" mufflers and the current EMPI's (made in china) that easily rust out in 8 months (in some cases, climates...etc). I in particular had one that doesn't see salt, etc. rust out within that time frame. But...EMPI has seriously gone the way of the doh doh

I think I have a mantra...as I say it again..

To each his own...and you really get what you pay for.
That...is for emphasis...

Joe
1979 Rabbit mTDI crazy $*(\%& bunny...
1972 VW Westfalia
2009 VW Tiguan SE 2.0T (Wife's car)
2001 Audi TT 225 Quattro Roadster (something newer :) )

Reply #29May 23, 2008, 03:36:25 am

Pat Dolan

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« Reply #29 on: May 23, 2008, 03:36:25 am »
Joe:

Shows how long I have been out of the picture.  I didn't know there WAS a "Cofab" (obviously Chinese licensee just like Cofab is/was the Brazilian one).
lifetime VW enthusiast, racer, fixer, addict, etc.
'03 TDI Variant, MkII Golf Country, Mk1 and II Scirocco (gassers), a Vanagon aircooled, an Audi 2.0 TD waiting to become a Porsche TD (in my M471 924), FLD120/DDEC IV, Ford 7.3/450, Iveco D220 and some 6D14T Mitsus and a few more.