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#180
by
Vanagoner
on 27 Oct, 2009 23:23
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Ok, given what you say, would it make more sense to eliminate the stock sandwich cooler if other radiators are in it's place?
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#181
by
witoke
on 27 Oct, 2009 23:28
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What gets me is that that gazillions of these were sold in Yurup, apparently without overheating trouble so there must be something different. If its not the radiator itself, maybe the extra flow through the stock rad because of the wider tunnel? Any measurements of that yet? Seems to me that could be resolved, at least partly, with higher output fans and a lower thermo switch.
Anyway, mine is set up with the FMOC, 1/2 inch armored hose and I deleted the stock oil cooler altogether and plugged the stock hoses. I use an oil thermostat just downstream of the take-off point on the block to allow for quick oil warm up. It doesn't seem to work any better if I connect these two hoses together or block them off. I was thinking that the additional water pump would be downstream of the block to add some oomph to the flow to the radiator.
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#182
by
Vanagoner
on 28 Oct, 2009 12:50
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#183
by
Vanagoner
on 28 Oct, 2009 19:07
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I agree that introducing one into a stock system could result in strangeness, If I had the $ I'd do it this way-
Tear out the sandwich cooler, the thermostat, the impeller on the water pump, and all of the crossover hoses. put in an EWP at the inlet to the block, with the electronic control. The return pipe goes to the radiator. Electric booster pump for the heater core circuit. Electronically controlled fan at radiator by the same company. End of story, no more maze.
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#184
by
55eta
on 29 Oct, 2009 18:01
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if you are looking for auxiliary pumps just google jabsco as they are the dogs dangly bits and there are 100s of variations and sizes but they are not cheep ,but they are long lasting [providing you never run when dry] + they are repairable and designed to be belt driven.
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#185
by
witoke
on 29 Oct, 2009 23:46
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this is more what i had in mind:
http://www.naautoparts.com/m8_view_item.html?m8:item=0%20392%20020%20024. (And as far as I know "bollocks" is not one of the proscribed seven words.)
Interesting thoughts Andrew, you are probably correct that odd flow patterns through the maze of pipes may result from a booster water pump. I have been thinking of placing it somewhere on the main line to the radiator but will need to monitor it carefully. As for overheating; I actually do get overheating under heavy load and high ambient temps. Like full camping load, 4 people and a long freeway hill in the high 90's F. But even regular freeway driving I am still running at at 3/4 gauge and I have to ease off the throttle to keep the temps acceptable on hills. It will drop to half on the downhill quite quickly so it really does seem as though the engine produces more heat than the cooling system can cope with when under heavy load.
Of course I have the additional problem that my egt's hit 1200 with no problem under any sort of freeway driving. This is something I am going to try to solve with more boost and maybe some changes to my IC. Or maybe I'll just buy a Toyota truck and a rooftop tent and let the van sit with my collection of crap/classic cars in the back yard. (Anybody want a nice '72 240Z with a '73 parts car, a '78 300d merc or an 83.5 Vanagon shell?)
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#186
by
wildenbeast
on 30 Oct, 2009 12:02
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But even regular freeway driving I am still running at at 3/4 gauge and I have to ease off the throttle to keep the temps acceptable on hills. It will drop to half on the downhill quite quickly so it really does seem as though the engine produces more heat than the cooling system can cope with when under heavy load.
Of course I have the additional problem that my egt's hit 1200 with no problem under any sort of freeway driving.
Can I ask what turbo and IP you are running? I had similar EGT problems before I learned that the "quality" turbo and IP I had bought from
prothe were filled with cheap chinese parts and even the wrong camplate for an AAZ. My first notable drop in EGTs were when I swapped these parts out for quality ones. The second notable drop in EGTs happened after I had a better free flowing exhaust fabricated. As Andrew stated, if you are seeing 3/4 gauge just on freeway driving, it seems there is something wrong with your cooling system.
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#187
by
witoke
on 30 Oct, 2009 20:29
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I am running the stock Vanagon jx turbo-diesel set up with both the original IP and turbo. Basically after being shafted by "Quality" German in Montclair Cali I had to have everything on the motor and the motor itself completely rebuilt. The water pump, oil pump, pressure cap, engine hoses, lines to the radiator etc are all new, block was hot tanked before being re-assembled, original copper radiator was rebuilt by a radiator company I have used for years. IP was rebuilt by this guy:
www.vwdieselparts.com/. Turbo is stock KKK that I have just had rebuilt but was working fine before it blew. I think somewhere on this thread are details of what I did with exhaust and Saab IC.
I have had the radiator checked, it's been bled multiple times, water pump was checked for loose or slipping vanes, pressure cap is holding fine, thermostat is new and has been checked. Fans kick in at appropriate times on the rad. Compression is good, starts and runs perfectly, will pull a heavy trailer without issue in town, no oil in coolant or vice versa just overheats under load at highway speeds and the EGT issue seems intractable. Honestly I just don't know what else to do except to replace the radiator with a new aluminum one or a bigger one that I can shoehorn in there and try that.
I used to do all this myself but have farmed it out over the last few years as I am too busy with another big project. Mechanic is playing with the timing now to see what happens to EGT's, then I will add a boost adjuster valve and try 20 psi. I was willing to put a fair amount of work and money into this van as it is an '82 diesel westy with less than 60k total and no rust or accident damage on it but it is getting ridiculous and I am getting too frustrated to carry on at this stage. I am open to suggestions, including Molotov cocktails...
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#188
by
witoke
on 31 Oct, 2009 10:17
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Reiney, meeting up would be great, it would help to look over someone else's engine set up and compare notes. It also sounds like there might be hope that this will actually work out, given a few different experiences. PM me for details and thanks.
Alex
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#189
by
55eta
on 31 Oct, 2009 16:49
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I have used those pumps as circulating pumps on charge coolers and they work fine for that but i think they would strangle the flow for the purpose that you have in mind as they have 12 to 15mm internal diameter to connect to the 22mm o/d heater pipes,vw use them to increase the flow through the heater matrix.I have seen slightly larger ones on ebay from a company that dose a lot of charge coolers and they were reasonably priced but canot remeber what they are called
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#190
by
Baxter
on 31 Oct, 2009 18:35
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I think some of you maybe missing some points here.
3 different radiators fitted to the t3, the early, poxy metal one from the "CS" engines vans, coolant temp switches for the radiator at the top (clever, nice one VW)
the 34mm thick later plastic one from crappy "DF" engined 1.9 wasserleaker.
The 44mm thick daddy radiator from the 1.6TD and 2.1 wasserleaker.
Also, the TD has a much, much bigger 500W radiator cooling fan, and as noted factory TD vans have a different cab floor giving more room for said fan, and the air throughput.
I know that from experience, AAZ conversions with either the early CS radiator, or the poxy 34mm radiator is asking for trouble, even in our crap climate, where it's generally pissing down, temp gauge will float more than normal and usually sits just above LED.
80°c thermosta will go some way to addressing that.
Oil cooler, 5/8's pipe, thermostatic take off and mounted on the front is generally all thats needed in the UK, I like the 25 row cooler as it more or less fills up the space of the lower grill. Using one of those here usually sees oil temps pegged at 90° c.
Other thing I think your missing is the fact that factory 1.6TD did infact have an auxilliary water pump that switches on at 104°c but is not there to aid cooling but to prevent heat soak when the engine is turned off, on syncro models this switch is also linked to the turbo cooling fan fitted behind the left hand rear light that blows cool air from the rear pillar over the turbo.
Don't even bother trying to mount an oil cooler anywhere other than at the front of the radiator, they don't work.
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#191
by
Syncroincity
on 31 Oct, 2009 20:13
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Maybe look for a radiator fan/shroud from an air-conditioned van, they also have huge blowers on them. Sounds like a Cessna taking off on high...
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#192
by
witoke
on 31 Oct, 2009 22:08
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I lived in the UK for a few years under the gentle hand of Mrs.Thatcher, suffice to say it is still a pleasure to hear a plain speaking Yorkshire-man's English. So I guess I'll throw away my ***e radiator and get a new one for a 2.1, preferably with the fans from an AC van. Thanks for the input Baxter, I know you have done a lot of work with these vans.
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#193
by
wildenbeast
on 02 Nov, 2009 11:40
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Other thing I think your missing is the fact that factory 1.6TD did infact have an auxilliary water pump that switches on at 104°c but is not there to aid cooling but to prevent heat soak when the engine is turned off, on syncro models this switch is also linked to the turbo cooling fan fitted behind the left hand rear light that blows cool air from the rear pillar over the turbo.
Can you share how this turbo cooling fan is fitted and what brand/model of fan is used? Since some of us are using smaller turbos for altitude, I think the cooling fan makes a ton of sense.
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#194
by
Baxter
on 02 Nov, 2009 17:30
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Okay.
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251 959 455 L
200w - 305mm fan
used in DF/EY engined vans (low output 1.9 wasserleaker)
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251 959 455 G
300w/200w - 305mm fan
Used in DG/DJ/MV/SP/SR/SS (DG is 1.9 carb wasserleaker, rest are 2.1l wasserleakers)
and in DF/EY with Air Con.
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251 959 455 M
450w - 305mm fan
Used in KY (1.7d)
And in DG/DJ/MV/SP/SR/SS (DG is 1.9 carb wasserleaker, rest are 2.1l wasserleakers) with Air Con and Syncro
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251 959 455 AA
500w/348mm fan
Used in JX and some KY (Factory 1.6TD and 1.7D respectivley)
Not used in anything else - hance raised cab floor
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Hope that is of some use to you.
Looking at ETKA, I would have said the only radiators available to you were the early, crap metal one from the 1.6D "CS" engine, this is identified by the 2 coolant switches for the radiator fan at the top of the rad, and the later 44mm thick one, plastic tanks, ally tubes and fins with the radiator fan switch at the bottom.
If you have an early 1.6D "CS" van and want to convert to the later, better system then there are a few things you need to do.
1. cut the upper mounting panel from a late van and weld it into your early van.
2. Use the later lower mounts.
3. Rewire the fan relay to worth with 3 wires instead of 4 (or just swap the loom out of a late van)
4.Swap the radiator hoses, early 1.6D "CS" vans have 32mm metal coolant pipes, later better cooling systems have 38mm plastic pipes.
Swapping to the later style also means enlarging the holes in the chassis to get the bigger bore pipes through, or re-routing the heaters hoses.