Author Topic: 1.5 Potential... (Read 14963 times)

Turbinepowered · « **on:** March 02, 2007, 07:41:09 am »

Does it have any? Not talking about potential for serious horsepower, but instead a more modest amount with some good reliability. I'm shooting for stock 1.6TD figures, 68hp and 98ft-lbs, going from 52hp and 58ft-lbs.

I like the idea of the smaller displacement engine for a lower baseline fuel consumption (same basic idea behind the 1.4 TSI VWs putting out), but with the ability to put out some modest power on demand so it can get out of its own way.

Obviously some upgrades would be in order, likely a turbo (And since there are no oil jets, a nice, big intercooler and an EGT gauge are mandatory) and its companion 1.6TD injection pump; I imagine a machine shop can upgrade the head bolt holes and head to accept 12mm head bolts, with an eye toward using the studs. Maybe do the same for the crank main studs, if they're different?

I already have this engine, it's dead in the Dasher I just brought home, and since lately I've been having problems with the growing collection of engines around this place... we're going to see if what I have can be made to work, first!

jtanguay · « **Reply #1 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:31:34 am »

coating the piston crown's should negate the need for piston oil squirters. as long as you keep the temps low enough.

those power figures should be easily attainable... since some people have literally doubled the 1.6TD's...

Slave2School · « **Reply #2 on:** March 02, 2007, 08:34:11 am »

According to what I've read a Giles Pump alone should get you darn close to what you want and no turbo needed.

foxracer1 · « **Reply #3 on:** March 02, 2007, 09:31:34 am »

Couldn't you use gasser studs? I believe they are 11mm.

Turbinepowered · « **Reply #4 on:** March 02, 2007, 09:41:31 am »

Quote from: "Slave2School"

According to what I've read a Giles Pump alone should get you darn close to what you want and no turbo needed.

I don't quite have $800 to drop on a single piece of it, either.

The rest of the car needs some loving too, like door handles on all four doors, a new latch in the back, new dashboard, rear brakes (Holy crap, we had to gut the driver's side brake drum, then stick it back on so we could roll it home! :shock:) and the shocks are feeling quite squishy so I might replace them with something a little firmer.

How much would it cost to coat piston crowns? How's that sit with thermal expansion of the piston, I'd think that would lead to cracking; ditto for the prechambers, since if I do the crowns I'll probably do the chambers too to help keep heat in.

Would gasser studs hold up to 23:1 compression for very long? I thought that the 11mm studs were part of why the 1.5s blew headgaskets often?

But check this: the sunroof doesn't leak :shock:

We drove home through a fairly torrential downpour that lasted over two hundred miles, and not a single bit of dampness around the sunroof or pillars. I was rather amazed.

jtanguay · « **Reply #5 on:** March 02, 2007, 10:08:59 am »

well if the injection pump has never been rebuilt.. you might be looking at an expensive rebuild anyways down the line... a good thermal reflective coating shouldn't flake off.

foxracer1 · « **Reply #6 on:** March 02, 2007, 10:16:53 am »

I'm not sure. But they would be better than the factory strech bolts.

saurkraut · « **Reply #7 on:** March 02, 2007, 02:31:41 pm »

Raceware makes an 11mm "Diesel Guard" stud kit. I have them in my 1.5 TD project engine.

I have the K24 turbo on, preturbo thermocouple, 2.5" downpipe and exhauste.

Still trying to get an answer out of Giles about a 1.5TD pump befor I can fire it up.

There might even be a power advantage to the 1.5 as it has a shorter stroke with the same bore size as the 1.6.

I'm no too worried about piston temp. On my 1.6, I haven't had many excursions past 1300F with 25PSI booste and smoke. The big exhaust is the key i think. perhaps the piston cooling jets are just a band aid for a crappy exhaust diameter on the original TD engines.

rabbid79 · « **Reply #8 on:** March 02, 2007, 06:30:55 pm »

Quote from: saurkraut

perhaps the piston cooling jets are just a band aid for a crappy exhaust diameter on the original TD engines.

And the lack of a factory intercooler.

saurkraut · « **Reply #9 on:** March 03, 2007, 07:51:29 am »

My EGT observations are with out an intercooler. Although an intercooler is important, I really think the big pipe is more important than the intercooler. The bigger the better. I remember Jake's early observations on his pipe install. The best performance he observed was with the 2.5" down pipe, and nothing else. When he added the rest of the 2.5" exhaust system, the performance went down. If you have to choose which to do first, due to money or time constraints, do the pipe first. at least 2.5, front to back. Nos-hit, I really have to try to get my EGT up to the 1300 mark on the 1.6.

An intercooler for each is on the agenda. I have an Isuzu NPR intercooler for the 1.6, but it won't clear the larger radiator. The master plan is a ceramic coated 1.9 head on the 1.6 so hopfully I can run a slightly smaller radiator and get the big intercoller in front of it. I have a new 1.9 head, just have to figure out what i'm going to run for valves, do some port clean up, and send it out for the cermic coating.

I have a ford probe intercooler for the 1.5, but its not going anywhere without the pump.

935racer · « **Reply #10 on:** March 03, 2007, 06:46:03 pm »

I've used arp vw watercooled 11mm headstuds before, they work great. Just keep an eye on egts and you don't need to coat the pistons. As said upgrading the downpipe, exhaust, air intake etc, anything to increase airflow will help gain power and lower egt.

Turbinepowered · « **Reply #11 on:** March 03, 2007, 10:04:07 pm »

Quote from: "935racer"

I've used arp vw watercooled 11mm headstuds before, they work great. Just keep an eye on egts and you don't need to coat the pistons. As said upgrading the downpipe, exhaust, air intake etc, anything to increase airflow will help gain power and lower egt.

Got an ARP part # for the 11mm studs? Or better yet, a source? I like the thought of having a little machining work as possible done on this block.

She's a "seized" block right now, but the story I've heard is that it wasn't an overheat seize, wasn't a running seize, it just... wouldn't turn over after sitting out in the yard forever. So I'm guessing, right now, that the rings are "stuck" to the side of the block, and some good solvent followed by penetrating oil will break them free. Then it's just a rering and a honing, probably go ahead and have the oil and coolant passages cleaned out, and we're done with the block in the machine shop.

A big exhaust was already planned for it, whatever engine I went with, for both easy breathing and sound considerations; I've heard some really nice sounding, big exhaust small diesels. Something about how it just throbs... with a touch of turbo-whine to provide upper range counterpoint.

I already have a smallish intercooler out of an Audi 5k turbo model, but I might get something bigger if I feel monied as this project moves along. My target is to have this thing up and running and on the road before the 10th of May... we'll see how things work out, won't we?

935racer · « **Reply #12 on:** March 03, 2007, 11:01:55 pm »

I don't have a part # but it should be pretty easy to find, and you can find arp hardware at all sorts of auto stores.

Turbinepowered · « **Reply #13 on:** March 04, 2007, 10:03:26 pm »

Like, a FLAPS type auto store (Advance, NAPA, that sort of auto store) or someplace a little less utterly generic?

I'll nose around when I'm back in my home state; I'm assuming that the thread pitch and such are the same as the 1.6 head studs? I seem to recall someone listing the pitch and such in the ARP part numbers thread...

jtanguay · « **Reply #14 on:** March 08, 2007, 10:14:04 pm »

Quote from: "libbybapa"

Quote from: "Turbinepowered"
I like the idea of the smaller displacement engine for a lower baseline fuel consumption

I'm glad you like the idea, but I don't know how accurate it is. Certainly different engines have different baseline engine efficiencies, but I'm not under the impression that with regard to diesels that engine efficiency is necessarily displacement related. Please correct me if I'm wrong, but because diesels can run infinitely lean and have no throttle, the only downside to increased displacement (given all other factors remaining the same) is that there might be more reciprocating mass or even more weight to carry around. There is not the same fuel economy detriment that is present with gas engines which require a stoichiometric mixture. Basically if a diesel is rotating faster than necessary all fuel can be cut (free-flowing air pump) and at idle the only fuel required is enough to keep it rotating. If a larger displacement diesel is driven at the same acceleration rates as a smaller displacement diesel the vehicle gets the same fuel economy. It's only when someone takes advantage of the added horsepower/torque that is present with larger displacement, that there is a fuel economy detriment. If you want to decrease your fuel consumption it's easier to either demonstrate self-control or turn down the max fuel on a larger displacement motor than it is to swap motors IMO.

Andrew

Good write up! to sum it up, a 1.6TD making 68 hp is going to use the same amount of fuel as a 1.5TD making 68hp. Correct?!

the only time I can see the larger displacement engine using more fuel, is out of its efficiency range, say way up in the RPM's. and again, acceleration is the key in fuel consumption. Some newer TDI's run 2000 rpm @ 80mph???!!! talk about efficiency :shock: