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#30 by jtanguay on 07 Nov, 2006 14:56
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I think that a small oil pump would be most beneficial for preventing dry starts. All you really need is a 'primed' engine, meaning that you get less metal on metal action while cranking your cold motor to start.
http://www.emp-corp.com/html/contact/faq/ look at the bottom of the FAQ... they are working on an electric oil pump to prime the engine, and to lessen the load on the engine. Couldn't find any info on their electric oil pump ..
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#31 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 07 Nov, 2006 15:25
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Does anyone know how much power a block heater takes?
I live in an apartement and I can't plug the car when it's very cold. I was thinking of welding a block heater to the back of the oil pan like Dr.D did and using an inverter on the battery to power the block heater for a few minutes before starting the engine. I have a very good battery (1100 amps AC Delco), I'm not worried of draining it. I'd use an inline fuse just in case something goes wrong and a switch to turn it on and off.
Let's say it's a 200W heater and 12.6V being normal battery voltage. 200W/12.6=15.87amps.
A 200W heater would need 15.87 amps to heat up. Pretty good, my stereo systems pulls more than that and I can listen to it for a few hours with the car off. -
#32 by HarryMann on 07 Nov, 2006 16:32
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Quote
for a few minutes before starting the engine
But would just a few minutes at 200W do the job? A quick guess knowing that an electric kettle is 2,000W and takes waht? about 3 minutes to boil a 1.5 litres of water.. maybe 5 or 10 minutes to get the oil up to 50 or 60? -
#33 by burn_your_money on 07 Nov, 2006 17:32
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I think this might fit the bill, maybe too high GPH though
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#34 by jtanguay on 07 Nov, 2006 18:31
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well I still adamantly believe that having an element directly inside the oil pan, directly touching the oil, will be the trick. I'm not too worried about boiling the oil because it wont be on the hottest setting. It's pretty hard to even boil cooking oil with the large elements deep friers use.
2 minutes with that type of setup, and your oil would be really really runny, easily flowing into spots it would not normally flow to under cold conditions. Hook up a remote control to turn the system on and make it more efficient. By the time you get to your car, your oil is pre-warmed.
i like that gear driven oil pump, but you still need to get a motor to drive it... could possibly use a cordless drill i suppose, but a lot of work.
black smokin diesel, i strongly suggest you get a marine battery and an isolator. stick the marine battery in the back, and use that for your heating purposes. its not a wise idea to draw from your cranking battery like that... on really cold days you'll need all of the cranking power you can get to turn over your cold and cranky motor.
once i get an oil pan to do some experiments in, i will see what works/doesnt. and find some sort of timer for the remote system.
and i may even just use the element from a hot water kettle. remember that we don't need to 'boil' the oil, just bring it up to around 5-10C to lessen the wear.
it wouldn't even be a bad idea to heat up the oil in the spring/fall temps or cold summer nights either.
BTW I have peltier elements that are 350W rated... wonder how they would work.. only good till around 100C though... But they could generate electricity from the hot oil pan hehe
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#35 by burn_your_money on 07 Nov, 2006 18:39
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Couldn't you wire in a shut off switch for when the oil reaches a certain temperature? I'll probably go with one of those magnetic heaters and just stick it on the pain and use a timer
Also, that pump states it's 12v, wouldn't that imply that is is electcially driven? -
#36 by itzdshtz on 07 Nov, 2006 19:15
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Here are a few pictures of the pre-lube pump that I made for my 2.0 TD Audi engine going into a Syncro Vanagon.
I got an electric brake booster pump from a school bus, this pump supplies hydraulic pressure to the brake master cylinder if the engine stalls. Paid $25.00 for it at the wreckers.
I tested it with 10/40 oil and it pumped great. It is bolted to an aluminum plate that I have drilled so that the oil filter fits on the back side. (The other filter is for my tranny that is pressure lubricated)
I have put a fitting in my oil pan and will run a flexible hose to the pump suction side and one more hose from the filter to the block where the oil pressure sending unit fits. I will mount it fairly low so that it primes easy.The driptray will catch the oil when changing the filters.
You don't have to make it this fancy, just put it on an aluminum block and run 2 nipples from the back.
Just connect it through a relais to a push button on the dash.
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#37 by Dr. Diesel on 07 Nov, 2006 22:11
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now that is good.... what kind of schoolbus was it?
my oil heater experiment panned out (hah hah... :roll: ) like this:
from 50F the block heater took it up to 220F in one hour. That was as high as my temp gauge read so I unplugged it. With a block and oil pump pickup in the equation, it would take longer to reach that temp if at all.
I bolted this pan onto my passat's new engine. I'm going to use a digital block heater timer to make sure that it kicks on only 20 mins before I need the car, and shuts off after that point if I'm delayed. I don't think it'd be a good idea to leave it on longer, or to use a hotter heat source. This little block heater bubbles the surrounding oil as soon as you plug it in. -
#38 by LeeG on 07 Nov, 2006 22:34
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Cool idea to use the brake booster pump. How common are those? My old '77 GMC 1 ton had a hydraulic accumulator to hold pressure for the same purpose, but I dont recall any 12V pump.
There are people selling 12 volt pre-lube pumps :
http://www.pre-luber.com/preluberkits.htm has a nice looking setup with a computer to control pre-run and after run times. $$ though
My experience with block heaters is that they take at least a half hour to do much warming up. I think you could easily kill your deep cycle battery by over discharging it. Plus you would have quite a load on your charging system to charge your cranking battery and the depleted marine battery.
How about one of those little $250 portable gas generators...plug in the block heater and fire the generator a for a while.
If you are serious about being able to preheat your engine away from AC power, you need one of these: http://www.espar.com/htm/Specs/water/D4Wspec.htm its only 10" x 6" x 3" I cant find any prices online, bet it isnt cheap. Webasto also makes automotive market diesel fired heaters.
My grandfather used to tell stories about taking a roasting pan of hot coals out of the wood stove and putting it under his model T in the mornings. So use a barbeque burner under some kind of steel cover? Slide it under there and 'fire up'. Be a good way to find out if your IP has developed a leak. -
#39 by jtanguay on 08 Nov, 2006 04:28
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Quote from: burn_your_money
Couldn't you wire in a shut off switch for when the oil reaches a certain temperature? I'll probably go with one of those magnetic heaters and just stick it on the pain and use a timer
Also, that pump states it's 12v, wouldn't that imply that is is electcially driven?
yes sorry... that yellow thing looked like some sort of filter... hehe was really tired
bubbles in the oil isn't too bad for it. as long as the oil sump is deep and the heat source is deep as well. that way the hot oil will rise and warm up the colder spots. -
#40 by jtanguay on 08 Nov, 2006 20:41
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i personally am in favour of using a diesel burner to warm up my engine... its just the way to go. Wonder how long it would take to heat up the motor?
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#41 by itzdshtz on 08 Nov, 2006 20:43
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It was an early eighties bus, can't remember what make.(Bought it a few years ago)
I also bought a pump at the same time from I think a 3 ton Ford truck with hydraulic brakes and there are some numbers on it, maybe you can trace where it came from: Bendix 18519-HG25
If you look at the mastercylinder ( looks like a bigger version of the GM hydraulic booster) you can see it bolted to the booster part.
It has a check valve build in to it, so that it doesn't spin backwards when your engine runs -
#42 by Slave2School on 09 Nov, 2006 04:19
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REgarding th ediesel burners (like webasto or espar) it wont' take too long ,perhaps half to 3/4 of an hour unless it is below -20 outside to get the car up to full operating temp. I think both the smaller units are over 15,000btu's and since they heat an circulate the coolants it gets things toasty fast. It's on my TDI wish list so I never have to scrape the car off again. The other thing is you can run it to get the temps up while you are driving for a much faster heat up that way too.
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#43 by VelocityConservation on 09 Nov, 2006 09:20
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Quote from: veeman
Don't the nascar guys use a gear driven pre-oiler before they start their motors? Kind of a neat idea as well... Back to the original ideas though, it would seem that some method of heating might work the best to lower (edit) the viscosity...
From my experience the NASCAR boys use a dry sump system and use an external pump that actually heats the oil and circulates it prior to starting. They want the engine above 150 deg. F before starting. They then keep the car plugged in while it sits on the starting line before a race/practice.
VelocityConservation -
#44 by jtanguay on 09 Nov, 2006 10:57
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driving the car with cold thick 15w40 oil is probably not a good idea. i love people who say you should drive your car right away... its pretty much just an emissions gimmick.
of course the main reason that the car is heating up faster is because of the added friction from not having enough circulating oil lube the motor... i don't know if i really like that idea...
don't forget that newer tdi's come with about 3 glow plugs inside the coolant to warm it up about 2-3 minutes faster. Bigger battery... bigger alternator... and the plugs only last about 4-5 years... maybe...