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Water Injection by BellCityDubber on 04 Jul, 2006 19:36
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Okay, so from what I've seen, water injection is used in place of an intercooler, and from the looks of things can be much easier to do than bend tubing and attempting to fit a rather large intercooler...
so...
can someone kinda give me the basics of water injection? I've seen hillfolk's setup and I'm intrigued...
I'd like to try and adapt my own solution sometime in the next little while, as I dont think I'd really be all that lucky with fitting an intercooler.
is there anyone out there that can aid me in this process?
TIA -
#1 by Benjamin on 05 Jul, 2006 04:18
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waterinjection (WI) is not in place of an intercooler (IC), you can also use a IC an WI. NOS is also a cooling system on diesels.
we try to get down the intake air temp, i think WI is only realy good when you drive on high turboboost!
My opinion is, try to get a pump wich gives enough pressure, you realy need this +100psi, but please try to go for a 150psi pump. You need this to have a goos mist, the water cools the air...
the negative thing about WI is you need to refuel the water/alcohol mix.
You need the right nozzle to, if you inject to much water, you get a waterbore (i thought this is the right word?), its not good for the engine!!!
Can someone explain the chemical, what do the alcohol do?
Do the Alcohol burn as feul, or do the alcohol helps to burn more diesel? I thought water is the best cooler...
I almost have my WI kit from Coolingmist on ebay.com, its realy cheap kit. anyway, its for my first try. When this is installed i also can say how much temperature this will cool down my EGT's.
Greetz, Benjamin -
#2 by ssray on 05 Jul, 2006 04:34
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For diy water injection check here http://transportation.hackaday.com/entry/1234000393047637/
the reason for using 50/50 water/alchol/methanol is that even though water takes in the most heat it dose it quite slowly where as alc/methanol do it a lot faster so 50/50 mix the best of both worlds
also the diy system lookes like it injects with quite a low pressure but it dose it before the turbo...any comments? -
#3 by BellCityDubber on 05 Jul, 2006 06:55
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Quote from: "Benjamin"
waterinjection (WI) is not in place of an intercooler (IC), you can also use a IC an WI. NOS is also a cooling system on diesels.
we try to get down the intake air temp, i think WI is only realy good when you drive on high turboboost!
My opinion is, try to get a pump wich gives enough pressure, you realy need this +100psi, but please try to go for a 150psi pump. You need this to have a goos mist, the water cools the air...
the negative thing about WI is you need to refuel the water/alcohol mix.
You need the right nozzle to, if you inject to much water, you get a waterbore (i thought this is the right word?), its not good for the engine!!!
Can someone explain the chemical, what do the alcohol do?
Do the Alcohol burn as feul, or do the alcohol helps to burn more diesel? I thought water is the best cooler...
I almost have my WI kit from Coolingmist on ebay.com, its realy cheap kit. anyway, its for my first try. When this is installed i also can say how much temperature this will cool down my EGT's.
Greetz, Benjamin
Yes, I intend on raising my boost a bit more (I'm @ ~1 bar), but I'd also like to be able to cool things down a bit as well, and from the looks of things, I think I can handle doing a WI system over an IC system, there would be benefits from running both, correct?
I dont mind having to refuel the Alc/h20 mix, that's not a problem... just an inconvienience as it is nature of the beast
I think ssray was right when he saidQuote from: "ssray"
the reason for using 50/50 water/alchol/methanol is that even though water takes in the most heat it dose it quite slowly where as alc/methanol do it a lot faster so 50/50 mix the best of both worlds
as far as pressure, What is hillfolk using as a pump and nozzle for his WI setup? (I'm going to try and look for the link) -
#4 by Benjamin on 05 Jul, 2006 08:47
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Quote
there would be benefits from running both, correct?
i neve did it, but when the air is cold, you cant make it more colder... anyway, you can't just put to much water in it, so in some instals there are benefits, but you dont need a big IC when using WI.
You can get a good pump wich can run on water (and even dry!) for just 70USD.
I bought my a whole kit for just a good 200USD, its not that big...
Normaly tomorow she will come, so i can give a update tomorow, but she will be installed over more time, i first gonna do my turbo upgrade wich is also coming with the post, damn those shippingtimes are to long
Greetz, Benjamin -
#5 by greggearhead on 05 Jul, 2006 12:50
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Some popular misconceptions out there that get passed around a lot - I will address what I know about.
50/50 water-methanol doesn't cool the intake charge as well as straight water. Water absorbs more heat than methanol as it goes from liquid to vapor. Water has the highest latent heat of evaporation this side of Mercury, which wouldn't be good to inject.
WI or W/AI *can* be used in place of an intercooler. Been done thousands of times, will be done thousands more. Intercoolers are good things, but for the cost and complexity in certain applications, it just isn't always viable alternative. An intercooler is a good thing, in and of itself, but there are drawbacks to large front mount intercoolers (pressure drop, increased lag, heat soak at slow speeds or in stop & go traffic, etc). We generally see intake temps drop 60-100 degrees F.
Another HUGE benefit of water and water-methanol injection is reduced EGTs. On overfueled Cummins/Powerstrokes, etc. we generally see 200-250 degree F drop in EGTs. More has been seen, but that is typical.
With a mixture of alcohol (we prefer methanol) there is a definite power increase. The alcohol is a fuel and burnsin the chamber, working a sa catalyst for the diesel, burning it more quickly and completely. Allows for more power from the same amount of fuel and helps to reduce EGTs as well.
Injecting pre-turbo can be argued all over the internet. It *will* eventually erode the impeller blades. Injecting before the turbo also does bad things for atomization. If a turbo compacts air together by flinging it to the outer wall, what do you thing it will do to small droplets of water that have a lot more inertia than air?
You can make your own home-made system and see benefits. It has been done for a very long time and will continue to do so. However, you will use a lot more fluid and get much less benefit that a system that is designed and engineered to atomize a water-methanol mixture with custom nozzles and controllers to proportionally inject water methanol for varying conditions.
Anyone interested in a Snow Performance kit or having more questions, feel free to call me. I would be glad to tailor any of our Diesel Stage 1,2 or 3 kits to your particular engine setup. -
#6 by BellCityDubber on 05 Jul, 2006 14:45
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This is great stuff guys
keep the info comming.... I'd like to get as many people talking about WI W/AI and others just to get an idea of where to go and what to do -
#7 by hillfolk'r on 05 Jul, 2006 15:14
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ill post my link to my setup,but its sooo easy,people try to over engineer it,and it doesnt have to be complicated,i wish more people would do it,you probably could whip up your own "kit" in an hour with parts laying around your garage
get an old a2 washer bottle with the pump installed on it,hook a hose to it and restrict the flow with an old carb jet,or that new "jet"im using now
just put in the air filter intake pipe,dont worry about atmosation too much,the turbo will take care of that
i use blue washer fluid,and sometimes i cut that stuff anywhere from 25 to 50 percent with water
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4345
thats the new "jet"
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3724
heres the water injection link -
#8 by BellCityDubber on 05 Jul, 2006 15:42
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Ahh Hillfolk... I've been waiting for you to chime in, I've admired your setup and such from afar for a while now... I've been tuning my diesel on a shoestring budget as I'm a automotive student
(on a side note, I'm the only vw guy... let alone the ONLY diesel guy in a class full of ford and chev V8 guys)
most of the modifications I want to do to this diesel have to be either free, cheap or stolen
<jk>
Now I have a few questions that have been brewing in my head...
How is the atomization; has it effected your impeller fins at all?
How long have you been running it?
What sort of jets should I use; do you have any recommendations?
It would be connected to a switch, correct?
What's the use cycle like?
When should it be engaged and for how long?
could it be wired up to a switch mounted on the IP so when the throttle's down, it'll kick in?
just some questions and an idea thrown in there. -
#9 by nkb on 05 Jul, 2006 23:43
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im also very interested in the jet sizing and for what amount of boost?
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#10 by greggearhead on 06 Jul, 2006 10:05
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On a turbo diesel, we can use anywhere between 25-50%(!) of the fuel quantity. And that is with a super-finely atomized mixture. Injecting pre-turbo destroys the atomization quality.
Think about it - if you have tiny droplets and send them into the spinning impeller, they will hit the blade, droplets running into one another, creating larger droplets, then be flung into the outside housing wall, droplets again running into one another making larger droplets that are harder to for the air to carry and distribute evenly (air easily turns sharp corners, water doesn't - relatively speaking), and with large droplets, you have much, much, much less surface area, so you get less evaporative cooling, etc etc.
It works, but if you are injecting a fixed amount, and pre turbo, you aren't getting anywhere near the improvement you can and you are using much more fluid to do less in the process.
For a 100hp 1.6 or 1.9td, I would recommend a 100ml/min or a 175ml/min nozzle. For a 150hp TD it would be in the 225-375ml/min nozzle range, with slightly reduced pump pressure (we normally run 150psi). -
#11 by hillfolk'r on 06 Jul, 2006 22:06
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Quote from: BellCityDubber
Ahh Hillfolk... I've been waiting for you to chime in, I've admired your setup and such from afar for a while now... I've been tuning my diesel on a shoestring budget as I'm a automotive student
(on a side note, I'm the only vw guy... let alone the ONLY diesel guy in a class full of ford and chev V8 guys)
most of the modifications I want to do to this diesel have to be either free, cheap or stolen <jk>
Now I have a few questions that have been brewing in my head...
How is the atomization; has it effected your impeller fins at all?
How long have you been running it?
What sort of jets should I use; do you have any recommendations?
It would be connected to a switch, correct?
What's the use cycle like?
When should it be engaged and for how long?
could it be wired up to a switch mounted on the IP so when the throttle's down, it'll kick in?
just some questions and an idea thrown in there.
um ive been running this basic setup for like 2 maybe almost 3 years now,somethin like that
my ol garrett compressor side looked fine,no erosion or anything
do ya have an old carburetor laying around from anything?even a lawnmower? so you can steal some jets
i think the orig jet i used was like an .050 hole
did you see my new"jet"?
you could hook it to a psi switch,or wot switch,or a combo of both
but i just have a button taped to the shifter knob
i activate it almost any time i floor it,or my boost is over 5-10 psi
ive held it on as long as ive had my foot to the floor,i dont think ive floored it for more than 20 seconds though(um 14.1-2-3 seconds in 1/4,doing 95+)
i dunno if id want it hooked up to just a wot switch,cause you can wot and not have boost
i sorta like tha manual button i got
i made the wires loong,so i can untape it from the shifter,and retape it to the steering wheel for the drags,its a pita to hit the button and shift,i learned fast at the drags
you sound like a perfect candidate for my setup(starving student)
mines free if ya got stuff in the garage,or real cheap
a carb jet,some tubing,an a2 washer bottle,and washer fluid+you are there
screw paying 300 bucks,so it"atomizes more finely"
you dont even need a carb jet really,solder a piece of(guage tubing) 1/8 inch copper tube shut+drill a small hole+make it larger until its what you need
actually,i got vw return line hooked to that 1/8 copper,then another piece of rubber,then into my new jet
the new jet"flows the same" as before,because i think the copper tubing is the restriction
mine doubles in value when i fill the washer bottle with blue stuff for a buck
pretty hard for water to get flung to the sides,when its being drawn in anyways
i "tested" the hydrolock capabilities one night,i was doin like 60 in top gear,like 5 psi,,well the engine started missing after like 10 seconds of holding on the button steady,so its pretty safe
even if it isnt an efficient setup,washer fluid is a dollar,it wont break the bank,so what if you even use 2x as much to get the same power as a "kit"?
i romp it hard,and i do 400 miles each week just for work alone ,and i use like 2/3 maybe 3/4(severe beating) of a gallon a week
then ive driven 500 miles to ny,and barely used it, its all hiway
i heard somewhere that an "average" is like 1 gallon every 1000 miles i dunno
hope this post isnt too run on,and is readable,lol -
#12 by nkb on 06 Jul, 2006 23:03
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i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?
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#13 by Benjamin on 07 Jul, 2006 00:56
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sindce yesterday i got my kit with a 150psi pump
i ordered a 300 an 600cc nozzle.
How can i know i push to much water in the engine?
??
I try to take some pics today
Greetz, Benjamin -
#14 by rabbid79 on 07 Jul, 2006 01:27
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Quote from: nkb
i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?
This sounds a lot like the problems they used to run into when they turbocharged and intercooled carburated gas engines. If the carb was draw-through (which means carb, then turbo, then intercooler) the fuel could condense and pool up in the intercooler. The way they got around it was to go turbo, then intercooler, then carb. I'm not sure it applies here or not. :?