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tiny piece of metal dropped in injector hole - pull head or not on low budget
by
purvisgs
on 30 Aug, 2014 10:29
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I was trying to pull an injector heat shield out with a pick and broke a .5mm x 1-2mm long piece off the end..it fell into the prechamber and presumably into the cylinder.
I was unable to fish it out with a magnet, and tried a shop vac hooked up to a tiny straw ...I don't think I got it but it's possible the piece of metal was so small it got sucked right through the mesh I was using inline as a screen to see if I was able to suck it up_ not 100% sure but it's probably still in there.
Anyways I am on a very low budget and don't know the history of the engine or how much life left (was pulling injector to check compression in the first place)...
Would you in this situation: pull the head?
Take a chance and try to run it with the small metal piece still in there
On a side note, given that I don't know anything about this engine condition and would rather not spend $$ on it until I know, any comments on WHETHER OR NOT I CAN GET BY WITH ATTEMPTING TO REUSE THE HEAD GASKET AND HEAD BOLTS? This is an 87 hydraulic 1.6td.
Advice much appreciated. thank you
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#1
by
Blocksmith
on 30 Aug, 2014 11:37
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I definitely wouldn't run it until that metal is for sure out of the motor. If the motor isn't worn out already, it wouldn't take that piece of metal long to bend a valve or score the cylinder walls beyond recognition, and then you've definitely got no other option but a rebuild. Pulling the head will also give you a better look at the condition of the motor. I've read several instances of people reusing gaskets and bolts successfully, so if $45 is not available for the new stuff, and you're reasonably sure that the bolts are original and you don't damage the gasket taking it off then I would give that a try. Anything is better than leaving that metal in the cylinder.
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#2
by
mtrans
on 30 Aug, 2014 13:03
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When my top GP broke,I got advice to pull off injector and without 12 v on IP just turn on and on.
Help in my case.
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#3
by
sgnimj96
on 30 Aug, 2014 13:15
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#4
by
ORCoaster
on 30 Aug, 2014 15:41
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If I was in this situation I would go back to the Shop Vac idea. I would first pull the glowplug and then put a straw in the injector hole and bring the Piston up to the top of the stroke. That will close the valves. Then I would suck out from both the glow plug and the injector hole and see if anything comes out. Have you run a magnet over the stuff that might be in the belly of the shop vac to see if the piece is in there already. If not try it and clean the belly out before you suck on this again.
You have to be able to see that piece of metal before you do anything else to this engine. The chances of messing up a valve or pushing it into the top of the piston are pretty good right now.
The other thing you might try is the scope idea and see if you can get that through the GP hole and determine it is gone or not.
That's all the ideas I have right now.
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#5
by
purvisgs
on 30 Aug, 2014 21:03
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So I tried running a magnet through the bin in the shopvac - no luck.. thanks for the suggestion.
I also do have a pickup magnet like the one pictured - however it barely fits down into the cylinder from the prechamber. I have tried rotating the engine up and down and it doesn't pick up anything...
I think possibly with a much smaller "tip" and a more snake like magnet, I could have more luck.
To be clear I have pulled the injector, injector washer, and the glow plug and the best access is from the injector from above, the glow plug hole doesn't provide much access...
Thinking about buying a cheap bore scope from ebay, I wouldn't mind having one...
mtrans, if I am reading your suggestion correctly, you had a broken off glow plug tip, and you turned over the engine briefly and it shot the piece out of the hole? Was the broken glow plug tip stuck in the glow plug hole or had it fallen down into the engine further.
Any more thoughts on: if I have to pull the head, could I get away with reusing the old headgasket and bolts?
Thanks for all the input and suggestions!
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#6
by
bajacalal
on 30 Aug, 2014 21:59
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I have a magnet snake I got at the hardware store that is only the thickness of a coathanger, and flexible. I got it because my car somehow swallowed a socket inside the trunk lid between two different pieces of sheet metal and it would roll around and make noise. Was a 30 second job to extract it with that. So you could try that.
If you're going to spend money on a borescope, I would say just get the gasket and bolts (or better yet, studs) and pull the head. It's not that expensive. You would also see the condition of the engine, you should be able to observe the amount of wear on the cylinder bores, any melting of pistons from injector problems, inspect the head for cracks or have it tested. And since genuine 1.6 turbo hydraulic blocks are pretty rare, its worth rebuilding so you will need a head gasket anyway, I wouldn't trust a shop to use the right one since there are different thicknesses and I've heard of places just running the thickest one so they don't have to worry about it but that drops your compression. If you decided not to bother with I suppose you could always return the gasket if you don't try to install it.
I don't think you would have a lot of luck with head gaskets that don't seem to last that long even when everything is working. Your engine has the one-time use TTY bolts.
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#7
by
burn_your_money
on 31 Aug, 2014 04:37
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I would try sticking the magnet as far into the engine as possible, and then blow air into the intake (with the correct valve open). It might cause the piece of metal to fly around and get caught on the magnet. The force of the air coming in may push the piston down rapidly so be prepared for that so that valves don't get damaged or wrenches thrown in your face. 140psi out of an air compressor makes a fair bit of force inside an engine if the piston is not at BDC.
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#8
by
92EcoDiesel Jetta
on 31 Aug, 2014 08:30
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Like already mentioned, do not run it till the debris has been found. Make your own magnet that will fit in the hole. Epoxy a small chunk of magnet to a wire. Make sure the magnet is well attached and cannot come off! For future reference, do not use a pick to get a stuck heat shield out. Use a 1/4" diameter punch. A few taps on the perimeter of the heat shield and it's dislodged from the carbon and easily fished out with a magnet.
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#9
by
srgtlord
on 31 Aug, 2014 09:27
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The last time I had a stuck heatshield and none of the "proper" methods worked, out of frustration I ended up jamming a small flat head screw driver in the center and pulled it out
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#10
by
ORCoaster
on 31 Aug, 2014 10:51
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Gee I take my heat shields out with a pair of needle nosed pliers. The are the kind that you have to hold closed or the spring keeps them open. I squeeze them tight, insert in the hole and release them, they open and I pull them back out with the shield attached. Never had this carbonized in place issue. But then my engine only has 138K on it and I have had it apart plenty once I got it at 117K.
feel sorry for you guys that have to beat on them to get them to surrender to a better place.
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#11
by
mtrans
on 31 Aug, 2014 12:08
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mtrans, if I am reading your suggestion correctly, you had a broken off glow plug tip, and you turned over the engine briefly and it shot the piece out of the hole?
Yes,on my FIAT 2500 NA engine just for record,broken glow plug tip is ,I think inside motor,because I can`t find.
That hapen with it?
gremelin from "ORCoaster" come in play I belive.
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#12
by
ORCoaster
on 31 Aug, 2014 18:01
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Mtrans, My father taught me most of what I know about small engines and such. His most taught lesson?
Never ever buy a FIAT.
The one lesson I learned early and still remember.
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#13
by
mtrans
on 01 Sep, 2014 13:44
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2500 ccm isnt small in this part of world,but there is much better engine of corse.
But,in my case I am heppy for I KNOW 330 kkm and 85 kkm on wmo.Best
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#14
by
745 turbogreasel
on 02 Sep, 2014 15:54
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motor upside down, turn by hand?