Non standard 1.6NA > Turbo build - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Non standard 1.6NA > Turbo build by CathodeRayTube on 15 Aug, 2014 12:22
• I have a newly rebuilt 1.6 NA long block that I am planning to build up and put in my 81 Rabbit. I believe it already has a ball bearing intermediate shaft, and a high capacity oil pump installed. I want to turbo it, but my objectives may be a little different than others here and i have some tricks and a "secret weapon" up my sleeve for making it do well with the turbo.
  
  I guess i want an equal balance of reliability, performance, and character...I like black clouds and noise, which many don't... I dont mind turbo lag or care how fast the turbo spins up as long as it will come to life if i floor it to pass somebody or get up a hill, and i guess maintains slight boost/stays spinning at highway speed. I would like to see 30lbs of boost when floored/high load, but only like 1 or 2lbs or even none when cruising.
  
  I plan to run an intercooler, rebuild/modify the inj. pump myself, use an EGT gauge and monitor it closely, use synthetic oil, use multiple oil coolers, and build my own oil-squirter/piston cooler device. The oil squirter is the "secret weapon"...
  
  Iv designed and begun fabricating a device that will sit inside the oil pan directly under the crank, with 4 or possibly 8 (haven't decided fully...input?) oil jets that will shoot oil up into the undersides of the pistons in the same [i think better] fashion as the factory oil squirters in a real TD block...This will be operated using a seperate, external electric oil pump and have an external cooler associated with it. The pump can run all the time, be manually controlled, or be turned on automatically depending on boost pressure, EGT or some other sensor. Harder valves/head differences aside, i think this will give Superior bottom end lubrication and cooling than whats in an actual TD block. (input welcome) [will post pictures]
  
  with all that said, i really don't know where to start with picking out the right turbo. I believe i read on here that a T3/T4 hybrid is the best choice for this engine, but i am confused by the trim levels and geometry...i know it relates to the pitch of the blades and affects the characteristics of it, and know that the needs of a diesel are different than a gasser... but still dont really know what im looking at when i see .63, .50 etc or know what the best choice would be.
  
  Also I dont know what to do about other choices... Ebay/chinese knock offs seem very tempting with prices of less than $200...but are they junk? Iv been disappointed with other cheap things from china/ebay...but pleased with others...anybody have FIRST HAND experience with the cheapos? or should i shell out for a genuine Garrett and not worry about anything failing. Do new garrett turbos come with a warranty?  I also want to consider ball bearing options, both chinease and genuine varieties.
  
  And what to do about the wastegate...If i should have one i believe i want an internal, but do i need one at all? especially if i have a larger, intentionally laggy turbo. I already have a T3 exhaust manifold.
• #1 by TimpanogosSlim on 17 Aug, 2014 00:04
• All I have to say for sure is that china will produce any level of quality that you want to buy.
  
  I know a local nutbar bmw mechanic who has built a 9 second 1989 E30. He swears by chinese knockoff turbos and tells people stories about how they are as good or better, the use of 360 degree thrust bearings in the knockoffs, etc, but many theorize that this is so that he can set himself up as a professional tuner for race bimmers while still using the parts he can afford, or something.
  
  He doesn't use an air filter on his track car. He's a nut. A nut who built a 9 second car and has several time slips to prove it.
  
  But he also showed me a knockoff HX30 that "someone" wore out. Had about 9mm of shaft play in any direction. The compressor housing looked like it had been cast in coarse sand and received little or no finishing.
  
  Every now and then you hear scurrilous rumors about turbos that are "glued" together, and those are probably exaggerations, but i wouldn't put it past the bottom end production line to use sealants that won't hold up to exhaust temperatures.
  
  Most factories in china that make stuff don't have a sorting bin that goes right to recycling. This makes it pretty tricky, if you don't speak cantonese and don't have connections in the special economic zone, to figure out if you are getting a good deal on a good product.
  
  But it happens. Some guy in california is importing knockoff Weber 48 IDF carburetors by the pallet that are pretty much perfect. It's said that he had to hand-repair a lot of duds before he was able to fully communicate to his manufacturer what he was willing to buy and for how much money.
  
  Oh, here's his latest youtube video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1smM-ojagH4&list=UUlxPmkaDEjYWbBWCwbSi5pw
• #2 by ORCoaster on 17 Aug, 2014 11:27
• Your "SECRET WEAPON" just became public knowledge. 
  
  i have some tricks and a "secret weapon" up my sleeve for making it do well with the turbo.
• #3 by CathodeRayTube on 17 Aug, 2014 11:44
• I'm not attempting to patent it or anything...i don't care. Maybe others here will do the same thing and further improve on it.
• #4 by theman53 on 17 Aug, 2014 11:57
• For what your goals are a holset like gizmo has would work. I have the bigger one that would work too if you want to throw the fuel at it, I have the he221w and gizmo has the he211w which IIRC is now called the 200wg? The goals of cruising boost and coming alive when you throw fuel at it is perfect. I wouldn't buy a turbo except the Mitsubishi or holsets. They look almost identical and come factory with the 360 bearing which helps spool and lets them take a beating.
• #5 by mtrans on 17 Aug, 2014 13:17
• Quote from: CathodeRayTube on 15 Aug, 2014 12:22

  Iv designed and begun fabricating a device that will sit inside the oil pan directly under the crank, with 4 or possibly 8 (haven't decided fully...input?) oil jets that will shoot oil up into the ........
  

  
  "I like it" and support the way you think and DIY work.
• #6 by shorttimer on 17 Aug, 2014 17:38
• It's always a good idea to take lots of pix of the things you fabricate. As they say: pix are worth a 1000 words. Sounds like you're on the right track.
• #7 by carrizog60 on 19 Aug, 2014 00:40
• i dont think that adding more oil jets will make it a surviver...
  for me to a vw diesel survive a turbo its the basics:better intake,intercooler,oil cooler,bigger exhaust and, the most important,common sense when driving...
  
  had a mech engine converted to turbo with a k24,boosted to 30psi,made weekly basis trips at 4000rpm and never had a problem.car suffered a accident,but the engine was sold and today,after trashing several gearboxes,still kicks ass.
  
  my 1.9 passat is also a 1Y converted to turbo,no problem at all for now(vnt20,oil cooler,intercooler,1Y intake,tdi gearbox and 60mm straight exhaust as surviving/power mods).
• #8 by Toby on 19 Aug, 2014 01:36
• My question is:
  How are you going to get any kind of nozzle in the pan to cool the underside of the piston head? If it shoots straight up much of the stream will get deflected by the crank and rods and slung around the pan. If it sits higher up the sides of the pan and squirts at an angle it will be spending 1/2 its time flooding the walls down which is bound to overload the oil rings and make it smoke like a ***.
  
  FWIW, what makes you think that the oils squirters are going to be some magic fix for abuse? They undoubtedly make some difference but how much?
  
  Also, why not just drop and end mill into the block and cut a little pad above the oil gallery to use the stock or modified VW squirters?
• #9 by CathodeRayTube on 19 Aug, 2014 11:50
• The jets will shoot straight up, thru the crank and will be deflected by it alot, but the idea is that they will be high enough pressure and volume that the underside of the piston will get enough oil during the times that the crank is straight up and down and there is a clear shot from the bottom...like spraying a hose thru a fan.
  
  oil is being slung around inside the bottom end continuously anyway with oil leaving the crank bearings etc...idk why more splattering around from a secondary system would be a problem...and the factory squirters spray around the oil rings also and i dont think it overloads anything or causes smoking...smoke is good anyway..
  
  "what makes you think that the oils squirters are going to be some magic fix for abuse?"  well, we dont really know. I think my method will make the bottom end just as or superior to the TD block as far as lubrication and cooling...but the limits within the head and head gasket etc will all still be there. I think if nothing else it will add a little extra insurance.
  
  
  I don't really like the idea of modifying the block itself because it defeats the purpose of making use of it. NA engines seem to be cheap and plentiful, whereas everybody wants a rare factory turbo one...i have 4 1.6 NA engines here between the ones in the cars and the spares. If i shell out to have the block extensively modified or try to use as many factory TD parts as i can, i might as well hunt down a genuine TD or import a whole engine, either an AAZ or a 1.6 TD high output from Europe/Canada for around $2500. This solution is a modular add on that i could just swap into any regular NA engine. I also do not have a milling machine and i imagine it would be pretty expensive to farm it out to somebody else...and from reading on here i was under the impression that adding factory oil squirters was either impossible or a very delicate and precise process to mill/drill in the right spots etc. I do however have a welder, vice grinders and everything else i need to fabricate my device which will just bolt in place with the oil pan.
  
  
  
   Carriszog60: what ballpark horsepower did your car make? i do plan to do all those basic things you mention...id like to have it be at least just as powerful as a stock TD or a little better... any other links to more reading about your specific car?
• #10 by carrizog60 on 19 Aug, 2014 12:15
• dont have that many info for it right now,its been years since i sold the engine and scrap the shell...
  it made almost 140hp crank and that with stock exhaust,just with end silencer removed.115hp at the wheels and with a 4s gearbox it kicked ass.
  you can check some videos from it from my youtube,search for carrizog60.
  
  i would rather push a turbo on a good D block than in a unknown state td block.
  my 1.6 block had the crank bearings,rings and other stuff overhauled,it had full compression and didnt eat any oil.only concern was the stock headgasket,but i was expecting that.
  manage to put a metal aaz in place(mechanical engine,remember) and never more problems.
• #11 by carrizog60 on 19 Aug, 2014 14:09
• also,paying 2500 for a turbodiesel is way too much.
  out here you can get a 1.6 for less than 500euros,heck, you sometimes it comes with a car attached to it 
• #12 by CathodeRayTube on 19 Aug, 2014 14:49
• thats to have a low mileage known working imported from europe...canada probably would a a little cheaper...alot of junkyards around here want $1000 or more for a high milage TD... iv gotten the NA engines for only $100 and they can be had for free if you know where to look... I also ordered a low miles Toyota Turbo Diesel and had it imported from Japan for only $1600 shipped and it came with a trans also...That is in my 4x4 Tercel wagon...but for some reason german/euro engines command a higher price...
• #13 by carrizog60 on 19 Aug, 2014 15:12
• for the money i would buy a late 1.6d block,pay a machine shop to install oil squirters,new bores,pistons etc and still be in the same price range for a beat down Td...