400k mile '92 ECOdiesel gets a K24 - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
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400k mile '92 ECOdiesel gets a K24 by EcoTX on 12 May, 2014 13:54
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Hello all,
Here is my "super-rare only 47 made" 1992 Jetta ECOdiesel.
I personally think there were more made and sold than that, but that's the rumor around the internet so it must be true!
It seems like everyone and their dog has one reading around all over these VW forums.
I don't have any good pictures of it but I will post some later, it is currently dirty and stuffed in my little duplex garage.
Quick history of the car...
My dad bought this car from the original owner with 88,000 miles on it in Dallas, Texas in 1993.
The original owner towed it behind his RV for over half of those miles he said, so really its only got around 350k on the engine.
He commuted ~150 miles a day for about 10 years in it, then got a 2003 Jetta TDI around 03/04.
It then became my FIRST car at age 16 (I'm 25 now) with a little under 350k miles on it.
I was not into cars and didn't know or really appreciate what I had at that point in life, but I didn't beat on it and never managed to wreck it.
I will make another thread in the User's Rides Wall section sometime with a lot more details about its past history.
I am putting this K24 on because I got it rebuilt by GPOPSHOP in Arkansas about 7-8 months ago and there is a 1-year warranty on it.
I just want to hook it up and put some miles on it to make sure everything is good.
I think it will be a good match for this car, given the ratios of the transmission and pretty much always being 3k+ RPM cruising around.
I'm excited to see what the differences are from the K14.
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Here is the VIN proving it is in fact a 1992 model (no cracks in the dash either
)
100% German straight from Wolfsburg, I can't find a part on this car that says Mexico, Brazil, or USA
If you know of some parts that probably aren't German on here, please let me know and I will go look.
Here is a shot of the original cluster, everything still works on it.
I feel like I need to include these next two items because they receive a ton of hate and I've never seen anyone recommend them or talk positive about them on all these forums.
The original water separator which has never given me problems, and also the infamous self adjusting clutch cable.
My dad had a clutch put in around '98 or '99 and the guy that did it also put on this cable, OEM Acco brand dated 03/98.
The same clutch and cable are still on the car to this day and have never given any problems in over 200k miles.
Exception not the norm I guess??
Here is the engine bay shot, along with my helper! (GF's cat, she loves to help and also scratch up the paint something fierce)
See the rain tray is good for SOMETHING! lol
This project is sponsored by AEROKROIL® The Oil that Creeps®!
So I started with removing the downpipe and my "exhaust system" (hehe
)...
Here's what the Aerokroil was up against...pretty tame and laughable compared to what some of you northerners are used to seeing I'm sure, but I did not want to take any chances.
I sprayed all these spots a few times a day for 2 days prior, they all knocked loose effortlessly like they were just torqued fresh yesterday...
Very impressed and couldn't have gone any smoother!
Exhaust system out through the TOP! LOL Boy that was easy...
Next up is the turbo and exhaust manifold... I originally tried to remove the turbo from the manifold, but that wasn't going to work.
So I had to remove the turbo and manifold as one piece, which meant getting all the manifold nuts off.
I started with the nut that was going to be the hardest, this bastard right in here under the turbo.
I had to remove the little heat shield to get on it good, Aerokroil to the rescue again!
I succeeded in getting it off with a 1/4" drive 12mm socket with an extension and flex joint.
After quite a bit of hassle and contortion, I managed to get it all out...god it was filthy
I had to remove the little heat shield on the intake manifold, also there was a bracket holding the oil line on I didn't see I had to remove.
She's out! (A good shot of my USRT shift kit too, I even put the MissingLinkz UHMW bushings on both ends of the shift rod)
The turbo is fine, works great, very slight side to side, no in and out, it is very tight still and turns freely.
Here is the K24 and manifold I'll be using.
I am using the Micro 1000 EGT gauge and probe from Aircraft Spruce, supposed to be damn good and fast, we will see.
That's all I've got for now, going to work on it more tonight and hopefully get some more stuff off, cleaned up, and painted.
Maybe a compression test too because I'm curious to see how it's holding up with all these miles.
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#1 by Dakotakid on 12 May, 2014 20:19
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I've got a turbo pump I could sell you to run on this if you want more grunt.
I've also got a very fresh 92 Eco with an honest 144K miles on it in storage.
I think you will see the definition of "turbo lag" the first time you take off (compared to the original).
However, you will see how much more there is above where your old turbo signed-off.
You will also now long for taller gears (final). -
#2 by EcoTX on 14 Oct, 2014 01:42
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Big update
Well its been about 5000 miles with the K24 and it has been great! No issues or problems.
I really can't say I prefer the K14 over the K24 or vice versa, they both have pros and cons and I like them both equally.
Yes it's more laggy than the K14, but for the driving I do (mostly highway @ 70-85MPH, 3200+ RPM) the laggyness isn't an issue at all above 3000 RPM.
I am still running stock 8 PSI non-intercooled with it, next mod is a boost controller and maybe up it to 11-12 with spikes to 14 perhaps.
Until I decide to intercool, I'm only comfortable pushing a few more PSI with it.
The Micro 1000 probe and EGT gauge is an awesome thing to have, I have my new pump dialed in to pretty much max @ 1300 F while flooring it up a hill for about 20-30 seconds.
Quick WOT bursts to pass spike to 1100-1200...
I have never seen over 1400 on this engine yet, and don't really plan to.
I'm anxious to see if I open up a few more PSI from the turbo if it won't help those WOT EGT's...
It quickly spikes to 10 PSI (just as fast as the K14 did cruising on the highway) and then the WG opens and it is just pegged on 8-9 PSI and EGT's climb to around 1200.
I don't have many hills around here though, so it isn't a real issue. 90% of the time I'm driving I keep it under 1100.
Just steady state highway rolling 70-80 and 3-5 PSI, it doesn't even register 800 on the gauge.
The lowest my gauge will read is 800 unfortunately, I wish it read lower sometimes like when idling to cool down.
I never had the EGT gauge with the K14, so I can't compare EGT's.
Anyway onto my real update...
The original 8mm ECO pump started leaking pretty badly from the throttle shaft recently.
Like spraying all over the engine and underside of the hood bad.
I had resealed this pump a few years ago myself, but didn't do the shaft bushing, which was heavily worn along with the throttle shaft itself. (Didn't know any better)
About 6 months ago it started weeping from the throttle shaft, just some wetness on top of the pump from time to time but not enough to effect mileage so I ignored it.
Honestly what I think happened is about a year ago I tapped down on the pressure regulator a few times with a punch to get some more dynamic advance.
That raised my internal pressures probably too high and coupled with the worn out bushing really sealed its demise.
So I budgeted and started saving to get one of my turbo pumps rebuilt at the Bosch shop local to me.
I have resealed a few pumps myself, but I wanted the professionals to properly rebuild and calibrate this turbo pump for me this time.
I showed them the RPM's I'm turning with the AVX and stressed that this wasn't 1983 anymore with 55 MPH speed limits!
Most of the highways I drive in my neck of the woods are posted 75 MPH, most people go around 80 or higher.
They chuckled and said they would calibrate it to the "high side" of spec for me...
While they had it (took them about a month and a half), I swapped in a 9mm NA pump from a 1984 Rabbit and replaced the timing belt, tensioner, thermostat and water pump.
I also took out the AC condenser that was leftover from my AC delete, pressure washed the radiator fins (soo much dirt/debris
), replaced the main metal coolant pipe, and installed the little fan belt so both my radiator fans turn now.
Needless to say it stays very nice and cool now which is a great feeling.
About the 9mm NA pump I had temporarily installed...it got me around ok, but it was definitely not a pump calibrated for a 1.6TD. It was actually way worse than the 8mm ECO pump!
EGT's were constantly through the roof with just light loads, it made no power even with the fuel turned up big time. All it did was make a bunch of noise, smoke, and EGT's with no power.
I had a hunch the dynamic advance curve of this pump was way different than I needed.
I took the advance spring out of both pumps and sure enough the NA one was very stiff and had 2 thick shims on the cover side.
The ECO pump's spring was much easier to compress and just had 1 small shim on the cover side.
I was going to swap the springs and shims just for grins to experiment, but never got around to it because my pump got finished. (Want to experiment more with this someday)
Really opened my eyes that plunger size and gobs of fuel isn't everything...I thought for sure the bigger 9mm pump would be "better" just on size alone, but it was definitely not the case.
Enough rambling, here's pics and more info
Shot of odometer:
Lines off and holes capped:
Injectors out and checking glow plugs:
Cold compression check, around 70°F ambient: Cylinders 1 - 4
Not bad for pushing 400k
Airbox, intake tube, belt covers, belts, and pump removed:
Rebuilt MK1 1983-84 TD pump, most bare bones TD pump that exists, very easy to adjust
I didn't get it in these pictures, but I swapped the throttle cable bracket from ECO pump that doesn't have the brackets for those goofy upshift switches 
Pump, new heatshields, and injectors in:
Belt on, timing tools out and timed up to 1.10mm initially, the highest I'd ever timed one just for grins
Way too advanced, very rough idle, strange drivability issues, re-timed it to 1.00mm after about 50 miles, WAY BETTER
Crazy how a RCH of adjustment makes SO much difference...
Lines, airbox, covers, etc all back on and finished!
Here's a video I made even that shows the first start up!
Shows how easy they can be to get started if everything is sealed up good and tight and your filter and pump are slurping full of fuel.
This is with the much hated late-MK2 fuel filter setup and original water separator still intact!
My fuel return line from pump to filter is 3 year old, 20 cents/ft vinyl hose from Lowes, has worked great, no air, no leaks.
http://youtu.be/QdA8YgaqnvA
I've put about 400 miles on it so far, it is amazing.
They definitely have it on the high side of spec I'd say.
After adjusting it so it doesn't shake my car apart, my idle screw is almost all the way screwed IN and it will blow quite a bit of black smoke if I floor it in the low RPM's.
I might actually turn the fuel down some in fact, there is a LOT of room to bring the idle screw down and up the smoke though if I get to feeling froggy one day.
Wish I could have been there and watched them calibrate it. I wonder why they didn't mark anything with yellow paint though like I see on most rebuilt pumps?
They knew I was going to probably turn some things haha
Got a 2 year warranty on it, I am very pleased and happy with their service.
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#3 by RabbitJockey on 14 Oct, 2014 12:41
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the 8mm eco pumps actually have a taller ramp on the cam plate, it probably would have been an upgrade if you would have given them the eco pumps cam plate
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#4 by EcoTX on 17 Oct, 2014 15:25
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Well I've put around 1000 miles on the new pump and have logged my first official tank MPG.
I filled it up to the very brim in the filler neck and reset my trip meter to 0.
This whole tank was 95% highway running 70-80 MPH with all 4 windows down, some head wind, some tail wind.
RPM's were 3100 - 3800 RPM for most of this tank.
Here I am at 135 miles, still in the white hash..
About 375-400 at half
535-550ish for 1/4 tank left
Decided to fill up at 617 miles, just into the red a bit
Filled it back up to the very brim
617 miles on 14.3 gallons = 43.15 MPG
I can maybe get 1-2 more if I roll the windows up, we will see as it gets a little colder.
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#5 by 92EcoDiesel Jetta on 18 Oct, 2014 07:49
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didn't you used to get 50 miles per gallon?
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#6 by EcoTX on 18 Oct, 2014 09:23
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didn't you used to get 50 miles per gallon?
My absolute BEST tank ever was 51ish, and it was with 100% stock everything before I started messing with anything on the car.
That tank was also all highway, windows up, not once over 65 MPH and lots of tailwind.
99% of my tanks, mileage is always 41-45.
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#7 by libbydiesel on 18 Oct, 2014 10:35
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You said that there are benefits and downsides to the K14 and k24 respectively. When running 8psi non-intercooled with no boost enrichment, what do you perceive as a benefit to the K24? Under those operating conditions I find the K14 to be better in every way that it is different.
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#8 by RabbitJockey on 18 Oct, 2014 11:33
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You said that there are benefits and downsides to the K14 and k24 respectively. When running 8psi non-intercooled with no boost enrichment, what do you perceive as a benefit to the K24? Under those operating conditions I find the K14 to be better in every way that it is different.
totally agree, and i am curious as well. -
#9 by njdub on 19 Oct, 2014 18:38
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Nice man! Love to see people putting tons of miles on these old diesels!
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#10 by ropadopa on 24 Oct, 2014 07:05
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what are you using for a tachometer?
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#11 by EcoTX on 30 Oct, 2014 08:53
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***Server migration a while back deleted this post and a few replies, I had copied this response so I didn't lose it, just getting around to reposting it***
Drove up to my parents house to help them with stuff and work on my other little project I have brewing...
I put another tank through it but didn't get any pictures this time... it was 594 miles on 12.53 gallons so 47.41 MPG.
That tank I actually tried for mileage a bit more. The first 300 miles were driving at night with nice, cool dense air and all the windows up.
The last 300 miles I had all 4 windows down again during daytime driving, but kept the speeds lower.
I kept the speeds around 60-65, few bursts to around 70-75 to pass etc, not a lot of constant, high speed highway driving this tank.
This tank was definitely the exception not the norm of my driving habits, but showed it is still very capable of 45+ pretty easily with a lighter foot.
Also my dad drove the car for the first time in a few years since I took it over and did some work to it.
He was grinning a lot, though he is getting older and kept it pretty conservative, shifting early and caught in the turbo lag most of the time.. haha
On the highway he had a blast! Most of his driving was highway as well commuting, so he could really tell a huge difference up around 3000+ on the highway compared to what he remembered.
Anyway we decided to go down a back road to avoid some traffic and had a small issue with a pothole...
Bent both of the passenger side 12 hole steelies and blew out the back tire and separated a belt in the front tire...
We put the spare on the back and limped it to a WalMart and got a new tire put on the front, but not before beating out the dent with a hammer.
The front rim wasn't as bad as the back rim pictured.
I (thankfully) had a nice set of snowflakes there, so those got some new tires and are now mounted up instead of the steelies and teardrop hubcaps.
Never drove a VW with alloy wheels before, always had steelies and hubcaps haha I like them though, they look pretty good.
Also been working on my other project more, putting a 1V turbo diesel into a 1982 Caddy.
---------------------You said that there are benefits and downsides to the K14 and k24 respectively. When running 8psi non-intercooled with no boost enrichment, what do you perceive as a benefit to the K24? Under those operating conditions I find the K14 to be better in every way that it is different.
There are pros and cons to smaller vs larger turbos is what I was getting at.
I don't know what the benefit would be under those conditions, if any.
Although without the official 1.6TD K14/K24 compressor maps, it is hard to know for certain just what is going on at different PR and airflow.
I know there are a few maps floating around that have K14 and K24 on them, but I always took those maps with a huge grain of salt.
There is, what appears to be an official T3 turbo map, which I can guesstimate with for the K24.
Looks like if I up the boost a few pounds it might actually be in a more efficient island for more of the top end than I am now.
There really wasn't any difference in terms of performance when I took the K14 off and put the K24 on since my fueling stayed exactly the same.
The K24 was of course more laggy and required me to wind the gears out a bit more, but all in all the fueling was exactly the same, so I didn't gain any more power.
All I really did was jumble around my HP/torque curves, which I guess is what you mean, you prefer the K14's "better" hp/torque plot for your conditions.
I am working towards more peak HP in the higher RPM's with this car since that is what most of my driving consists of.
I don't live at altitude, putt around 50 MPH back roads, go up any big hills, or do any city driving...so the loss of some low-mid RPM torque and "drivability" from a smaller turbo isn't a concern to me.
I am more focused on maximizing my top end cruising power with this car, and I feel the larger turbo has got to help with that.
I can't imagine there's many folks out there in a diesel VW cruising around at 3300+ RPM for hours like I do either.
I now have boost enrichment and what looks and feels to me like a pretty hopped up pump capable of plenty of fuel for my goals.
I'm working on upping the boost a bit, not sure about an intercooler though...I really like the simple, clutter-free engine bay, maybe one day.
Ordered the 20 dollar ball and spring MBC on eBay just now so I will be upping the boost a bit this weekend.
Also ordered a Meyle 3 way coolant hose (068121053P) to replace my 2 year old, 7 dollar Prothe hose that has hardened up and is starting to form tiny cracks.
Don't want to be left stranded from a 7 dollar hose blowing apart on me. -
#12 by libbydiesel on 30 Oct, 2014 09:25
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My experience is that the only thing that is gained with the K24 at stock boost/stock fueling is lag. The torque curve of the K14 is higher until the K24 spools. The torque curves of the K14 and the K24 AFTER the K24 spools are the same up to the rev limit, or at least close enough that the difference is not perceptible without instrumentation. Additional lag is certainly a difference in performance and, to me, it is a distinct downside. The K24 does not do anything better than the K14 until you are intercooled and running more than 15 psi of boost with fuel to match. I see no benefit to reducing low-end torque without some payoff at higher rpms unless you are producing so much low-end torque that trans reliability is threatened. Thus the question, what do you perceive as a 'pro'. If you are working toward intercooling and increased boost and fuel, the swap might makes more sense.
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#13 by ropadopa on 31 Oct, 2014 06:32
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what are you using for a tachometer?
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#14 by EcoTX on 31 Oct, 2014 10:46
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Did a little bit of work the last few days..
This is the 2 year old, 7 dollar Prothe 3-way hose with about 30-35k on it.
Starting to crack and leak...
Replaced with Meyle piece, for 5 times the price, it should last 5 times as long?? We'll see
Got the MBC (manual boost controller) hooked up
Rolled over 410k
Here's some pics of the car after a wash, only body damage is from the only "accident" I've ever been in on the back there.
I reversed into a lady in a drive thru when I was 16 haha oops did no damage to her, but left a slight dent.
If you are working toward intercooling and increased boost and fuel, the swap might makes more sense.
That is what I am working towards.
I didn't swap in the K24 because I thought it was going to be some amazingly badass super power upgrade, I never said it was any better than the K14 or had any pros over the K14.
I put it on because I got it rebuilt for another project that didn't work out and it was just sitting in a box, freshly rebuilt with a good warranty on it so I decided to put it to work, that's it!
I knew going in it was going to be more laggy, as is to be expected when going from a small wastegated turbo to a larger one.
I never even drove the K14 over 8 PSI or with lots more fuel so I have no idea what it is like, I'm sure it is a blast though.
Once I get the 1V in the Caddy driving down the road, I'll have more fun with the K14 and see what I was missing.what are you using for a tachometer?
what are you using for a tachometer?
It doesn't have a tachometer, YET. I bought a GTD cluster to put in which has a tach, but it arrived with the RPM needle broken.
The seller said it has happened a few times to him and he gave me a partial refund and is also sending me a few extra needles and instructions on how to replace it!
I'm going to swap my odometer and MPH gauge over to it too hopefully, I've never even taken out a cluster before so not sure what I'm in for.
About to go take it for a 200 mile drive...so long
