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1.6/1.9TD Franken: Max Boost?
by
Alcaid
on 08 Oct, 2012 05:39
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So,
how much boost will the Frankens take? (continously beating it around a track) Anyone know at what level H-beam rods throw in the towel? (I'm sure some Finnish guys would know
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Upgrades to help it take the beating:
- H-beam rods
- Girdle
- 12.9 Main Cap bolts
- ARP head studs
- Victor Reinz 1.9TD MLS head gasket
- Seperate oil cooler (oil to air)
- deleted oil to water cooler/"mixer" (there's enough heat dumped into the cooling fluid anyway!)
- Fuel cooler
- Oversize radiator
- FMIC to keep IAT low
- Cooling fluid that doesn't boil until 188°C/370°F and does not foam and clog flow like normal cooling fluids
- Fully reworked head including high grade alloy exhaust valves that can withstand the temperature exposure
- Better intake manifold to distribute air between cylinders better
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#1
by
theman53
on 08 Oct, 2012 06:19
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I don't know what they will take as mine was all 1.6. I didn't have the rods you did I had stock rods, but I could boost to 35psi when I was messing with it, I didn't see any increase over the low 20s with my tiny K24 so that is where I left it. Mine lasted 40,000 miles and died due to precup falling in #3...but the rest of the engine looked new. So if you have beefier rods and block I would say you could run much more. I would guess that your limiting factor is what andy2 found in the cylinder heads. IIRC he drilled 2 extra cylinder head stud holes per cylinder and made some other adjustments, but still would lift or warp the head with heat and boost. Then he went to the iron cylinder head and TDI and now runs something crazy like 60 or 80 psi with compounds. Search the TDI section of this forum and you may find it.
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#2
by
Alcaid
on 08 Oct, 2012 06:42
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I've read all about Andy2's experiments, and I know these heads don't like heat, that's why I'm upgrading every aspect of cooling, I know how fast these cars heat up with stock cooling system
The reduction of compression with the 1.9TD head on the 1.6TD head will lower peak cylinder pressures for sure, I'm not worried about cold start and idle noise as this will be my trackday car anyway. We've run 38psi on a friends Franken with stock rods, still going strong but I'm guessing rods will fatigue and bend or break over time? (173whp)
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#3
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 08 Oct, 2012 07:06
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I've read all about Andy2's experiments, and I know these heads don't like heat, that's why I'm upgrading every aspect of cooling, I know how fast these cars heat up with stock cooling system
The reduction of compression with the 1.9TD head on the 1.6TD head will lower peak cylinder pressures for sure, I'm not worried about cold start and idle noise as this will be my trackday car anyway. We've run 38psi on a friends Franken with stock rods, still going strong but I'm guessing rods will fatigue and bend or break over time? (173whp)
the heads get hot before the coolant temps will rise tho..
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#4
by
theman53
on 08 Oct, 2012 07:52
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I would think that the precup will expand and contract like mine did and eventually it will fall out. My EGT were pretty bad, so if your turbo can flow enough to keep it cool that may not happen. I cannot remember if it was boost lifting Andy2 head or drive pressure or both, but he couldn't keep it on without losing coolant all the time. Like I said earlier, I think the bottom end will be fine, it will be the cylinder head in one way or another be the limiting factor to your longevity.
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#5
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 08 Oct, 2012 07:57
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I would think that the precup will expand and contract like mine did and eventually it will fall out. My EGT were pretty bad, so if your turbo can flow enough to keep it cool that may not happen. I cannot remember if it was boost lifting Andy2 head or drive pressure or both, but he couldn't keep it on without losing coolant all the time. Like I said earlier, I think the bottom end will be fine, it will be the cylinder head in one way or another be the limiting factor to your longevity.
drive pressure is what kills these engines.. not boost.
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#6
by
RabbitJockey
on 08 Oct, 2012 08:01
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I can't say that I've ever seen or heard of a bottom end failure on a 1.6 unless it was caused by something else like bad timing or hydro locking, aaz and tdi, not so much haha. I agree the head is probably the weak point maybe gm diamond precups or modded stock ones are the key, bigger ones may help spread the heat out more and also with a larger opening stop it from building up and being concentrated on that one area
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#7
by
TurboJ
on 09 Oct, 2012 05:34
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MJF did break a H-profile rod once on his 1.7, I don't remember exactly what caused this though.
Stock rods don't hold together indefinitely. Many have been broken and bent, especially with VNT turbos.
H-profiles - I haven't heard of breakdowns other than MJF's.
Aki has now built many engines - 1.6 and 1.9 that use H-profiles, but not all of those engines have been run yet.
To my knowledge, no rod problems on those that have.
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#8
by
RabbitJockey
on 09 Oct, 2012 05:48
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MJF did break a H-profile rod once on his 1.7, I don't remember exactly what caused this though.
Stock rods don't hold together indefinitely. Many have been broken and bent, especially with VNT turbos.
H-profiles - I haven't heard of breakdowns other than MJF's.
Aki has now built many engines - 1.6 and 1.9 that use H-profiles, but not all of those engines have been run yet.
To my knowledge, no rod problems on those that have.
i recall mjf saying that there was something off about his rods too that may have caused the failure, hopefully he will chime in
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#9
by
theman53
on 09 Oct, 2012 06:07
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MJF did break a H-profile rod once on his 1.7, I don't remember exactly what caused this though.
Stock rods don't hold together indefinitely. Many have been broken and bent, especially with VNT turbos.
H-profiles - I haven't heard of breakdowns other than MJF's.
Aki has now built many engines - 1.6 and 1.9 that use H-profiles, but not all of those engines have been run yet.
To my knowledge, no rod problems on those that have.
The stock rods on a 1.6? My #3 barely bent when it ate an entire precup. The 1.9 rods I could see those bending anytime. I would love to see the guys stuff that broke if it was 1.6.
At any rate, with the upgrades that you did with the fasteners, gurdle, rods, and whatever else I think you have done all you can to hold it together. Did you ceramic coat the pistons? That and maybe if you made some kind of torque plate to help keep the head together if you are going to run boost like andy2 did would be the only other things I think you could do to make it stay together...other than drive it like a retired guy getting home to his wife.
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#10
by
MJF
on 09 Oct, 2012 07:34
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I'm not 100% sure what happened first. But I believe that piston pin flexed and broke small end bushing. That exploded small end and threw rod out. Con rods were from nascar sbc with Honda journals. Small end was thin and narrow which probably let the pin flex.
I dynoed 199whp@2,0bar, when it exploded there was 2,6bar boost with more fuel. Butt dyno told there was more power, but didn't make to the drag strip (next morning) to prove it.
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#11
by
Alcaid
on 09 Oct, 2012 23:32
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Thanks for all the valuable input guys
