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ADA pump installed on ECO motor by knikula on 31 Jul, 2012 10:09
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I originally sent this as a private post to derekp since I recently read that he had done the pump swap, and
he suggested that I repost to the entire group as somebody else may be interested in the topic...
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Hello,
I have a 1.6 ECO turbo diesel with the 8mm pump... just installed in my Rabbit Ragtop
Also have a 1.6 NA Jetta with an ADA equipped 9mm pump...
So, I'm doing the old switcheroo...I believe I've read you've also done this, along with the boost pin mod.
How did everything go, using the ADA pump on the turbo motor?
Thanks in advance for any tips you might share...
Regards,
Ken
PS I'll add a few more details to flesh out the story a little.
1) The ECO motor that I bought has had the turbo changed to the K24 by the previous owner...
2) The car runs pretty strong with the ADA 8mm pump, but more power is always nice...
3) I have an accelerometer app installed in my Xoom tablet, so I'll see how much acceleration it has..maybe today...
4) I also have an old Gtech pro, to see how it accelerates. Advantage of the Xoom app is that it logs the data into a file...
5) I have the toilet bowl downpipe, attached to the gasser exhaust(minus the cat).
6) here's a link to the car vid... https://www.dropbox.com/s/06zyk502ooxdaci/2012-07-24%2014.09.07.avi
7) I have a EGT installed, next up is a boost gauge, maybe a electronic boost controller..
So far, I love this car...
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#1 by R.O.R-2.0 on 31 Jul, 2012 12:02
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I originally sent this as a private post to derekp since I recently read that he had done the pump swap, and
he suggested that I repost to the entire group as somebody else may be interested in the topic...
..................................................................................
Hello,
I have a 1.6 ECO turbo diesel with the 8mm pump... just installed in my Rabbit Ragtop
Also have a 1.6 NA Jetta with an ADA equipped 9mm pump...
So, I'm doing the old switcheroo...I believe I've read you've also done this, along with the boost pin mod.
How did everything go, using the ADA pump on the turbo motor?
Thanks in advance for any tips you might share...
Regards,
Ken
PS I'll add a few more details to flesh out the story a little.
1) The ECO motor that I bought has had the turbo changed to the K24 by the previous owner...
2) The car runs pretty strong with the ADA 8mm pump, but more power is always nice...
3) I have an accelerometer app installed in my Xoom tablet, so I'll see how much acceleration it has..maybe today...
4) I also have an old Gtech pro, to see how it accelerates. Advantage of the Xoom app is that it logs the data into a file...
5) I have the toilet bowl downpipe, attached to the gasser exhaust(minus the cat).
6) here's a link to the car vid... https://www.dropbox.com/s/06zyk502ooxdaci/2012-07-24%2014.09.07.avi
7) I have a EGT installed, next up is a boost gauge, maybe a electronic boost controller..
So far, I love this car...
ADA, wtf are you talking about? ADA 8mm pump? eco pumps never had a functioning LDA that i know of..
LDA maybe? thats whats on top of a turbo pump..
or ALDA maybe? thats the Altitude sensing LDA used on n/a engines..
sounds as if you have the altitude sensing pump, and you have to modify the LDA to work off of boost, rather than atmospheric pressure..
making it breath better is a better idea than adding more fuel, in my opinion atleast!
with your next post, you should enlighten us as to why you want to change it all over? you will gain more power from a new free flowing exhaust, rather than a different pump..
you could dump as much fuel as the pump was capable of pumping, but your engine is still breathing thru an espresso straw... -
#2 by knikula on 31 Jul, 2012 13:00
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yes, that would be the altitude sensing pump that I am planning to put on the ECO motor...
I'm willing to put a larger exhaust system on the car, but I don't have it in hand yet or a source for it...but I do have the pump in hand.
Does anybody have a good source for a larger downpipe for a mark1 Rabbit...
My local VW guy has a Rabbit with a TD motor with a 3" system, but I haven't gotten a good look at it yet..
It does go over the rear "axle"....looks massive under there.
I just bought/installed the ECO motor in June, got it running a few weeks ago...
thanks for your comments... -
#3 by R.O.R-2.0 on 31 Jul, 2012 19:17
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yes, that would be the altitude sensing pump that I am planning to put on the ECO motor...
I'm willing to put a larger exhaust system on the car, but I don't have it in hand yet or a source for it...but I do have the pump in hand.
Does anybody have a good source for a larger downpipe for a mark1 Rabbit...
My local VW guy has a Rabbit with a TD motor with a 3" system, but I haven't gotten a good look at it yet..
It does go over the rear "axle"....looks massive under there.
I just bought/installed the ECO motor in June, got it running a few weeks ago...
thanks for your comments...
3" downpipes for mk1s are usually custom fabbed these days.. not too common anymore.
you still need to convert the ALDA pump to a regular TD pump.. there is a write up on here somewhere..
and you still need to open up your air intake, and exhaust system before you throw too much fuel to it.. -
#4 by knikula on 31 Jul, 2012 21:38
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thanks again, I'll look for that write-up...
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#5 by knikula on 05 Aug, 2012 10:32
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ok, some progress here...
ALDA pump now installed on ECO td 1.6...timed to 1mm
I put a boost gauge on it to see how much boost the turbo makes...with the manifold pressure directly connected to the wastegate, the gauge shows 11 psi maximum boost...does that seem about right?
Now I'm just trying to tune it a little...I figured I would try to turn up the fuel screw with the ALDA disconnected until performance matches the original 8mm non-boost enrichment pump..
with the original pump, it would accelerate from 20mph to 55mph in 3rd gear on a FF trans in 11.1 seconds...
without the pressure to the ALDA, I can get the car to match that acceleration, but I lose the ability to get a low idle, and it smokes like the 8mm pump never did...
I plan on ordering the 16 psi boost spring and pin mentioned here: http://www.vwdiesel.net/forum/index.php?topic=12762.0
I did insert a dial indicator into the ALDA top, to measure the travel of the boost pin vs boost pressure...with the original spring. I don't have much spring preload set via the starwheel, since the pin moves immediately under pressure.
I also chucked my boost pin into my lathe, and used a dial indicator to get initial dimensions of the pin. On the original ALDA pin, I measured a taper angleof about 6.5 degrees.
The angle is identical all around the pin, but it's eccentric to vary the offset, as the pin is rotated.
I took some video of these experiments, I'll post links when I get them uploaded.
My understanding is that the real LDA pins have a larger angle, and are cut deeper to add more fuel.
I also installed a solenoid valve between the manifold pressure and the pressure to my ALDA, and can now switch between ECO mode and "boost enrichment" mode...kinda cool
I flip the switch under load at 11 psi and you can feel it "kick in"....since my boost pin is so mild, it isn't much of a "kick"...but I yell "TURBO BOOST ON"...
Maybe I'll start grinding the pin today, and see how that affects things...
Does anybody know how deep the pin is cut on a stock pin? Mine is cut such that at no boost, the pin follower extends .090" into the ALDA pin bore, and at 11 psi boost the follower
extends .132" into the bore. I took a sharpie marker and painted the surface, to see the actual travel on the pin, which is about .360" over the 0 to 11 psi range, or .032 per psi.
So...pin travel is .0327" per psi (dependent on spring), however, the first 1/4 inch of travel is .040"per psi...I think I might be stretching the diaphragm a bit...
Boost pin follower movement is .00381" per psi....dependent on taper angle, and spring...
livin' large here...
Ken
1984 MkI Jetta..gasser converted to N/A diesel
1981 Rabbit Convertible (gasser converted to 1.6 ECO turbo diesel)
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#6 by R.O.R-2.0 on 05 Aug, 2012 10:55
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your fuel screw is turned up too far..
you need to adjust your throttle lever one spline CCW on the throttle shaft.
you have it turned up soo high that the fuel screw now sets the idle..
the smoke you found, is pretty normal if you ask me..
ive never played around with an ECO pump.. i wonder if they have a fuel limiter pin like a n/a pump? i imagine they do as well. -
#7 by knikula on 05 Aug, 2012 15:45
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good point on that fuel limiter pin, I hadn't thought of that...that's the one that has to be pushed out, or ground off, right?
As long as the follower stays in contact with the boost pin, I think I'm still adding fuel.
I have the fuel screw turned down to a decent idle now, until I see the results of the boost pin grinding...
Tomorrow I should be able to find out if I can order the pin and spring...
I was playing with the spline position on the shaft, and I was able to turn it, but it made a dead spot in the throttle spot, where turning the shaft didn't affect idle speed at all.
maybe I did something wrong...
thanks for your thoughts...
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#8 by libbydiesel on 05 Aug, 2012 16:23
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I doubt the ADA pumps have the limiting pin, but I'm not sure.
If you are smoking more at the same power with the same injectors, then your timing is different. -
#9 by knikula on 05 Aug, 2012 19:19
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that's interesting as well, as I don't know where the 8mm pump was timed at...
I try to change one thing at a time...but sometimes it's hard to do... -
#10 by knikula on 06 Aug, 2012 10:41
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here is a link to the boost pressure vs pin travel video...
http://www.youtube.com/my_videos_edit?ns=1&video_id=xZyKI_z2oj8
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#11 by 745 turbogreasel on 06 Aug, 2012 12:57
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http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xZyKI_z2oj8
Better link. -
#12 by knikula on 10 Aug, 2012 08:05
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I made a temporary brass boost pin...
see it here at: https://www.dropbox.com/s/i58mnyn9bemawzq/IMG_20120809_150655.jpg
the steel pin is the stock ALDA pin with a 13 degree included angle on the taper..
the brass pin has a 23 degree included angle...the follower moves over a pretty large portion of the taper.
Now when I activate the pressure to the ALDA dome via the solenoid valve I installed, you can feel the power kick in...
pretty cool... -
#13 by R.O.R-2.0 on 10 Aug, 2012 10:08
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Peugeot boost pin has a variable slope, and its a much steeper ramp than the 1.6 boost pin..
the Pug pins can be found in any 504/505 pump, as well as a few others.. -
#14 by libbydiesel on 10 Aug, 2012 11:52
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The vw TD boost pin is slightly eccentric in it's cut also.
In fact I've measured several including the Cummins 4BTA and Rover 300tdi and they've all been eccentric.