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#15
by
Luckypabst
on 10 Nov, 2011 23:26
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The 1k retorque we have all forgotten about from 20 years ago was pre-stretch bolt back when they were reusable, we forgot unpurpose!
This is not correct.
Chris
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#16
by
rs899
on 11 Nov, 2011 03:32
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BTW rs889, there is ZERO chance to damaging the block by retorquing a non TTY motor and it should be done regularly. Just because you have not been subject to a failure yet does not mean missing part of the factory maintenance is a good idea. All of these motors are notorious for head gasket failure; why would you purposefully ignore steps to increase its life?
The 11mm blocks are also notorious for block failure. I see no reason at this point in its life to go in and disturb a head which has obviously sealed and run the risk of damage to the threads which may have been compromised over the years. I am not an engineer and I can't deny the theoretical accuracy of what is printed in the literature, but I also think much of it does not take into consideration the compromised condition of the threads in a 30 year old underengineered block. I would rather not take that chance.
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#17
by
Toby
on 11 Nov, 2011 07:50
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11mm blocks crack when some goofball installs the head bolts with oil/antifreeze in the bottom of the blind bolt holes. When the bolt is tightened the hydraulic pressure splits the bolt hole. The block fails on assembly and will not hold a head gasket very long. Retorqing the HG can't damage the block; you are unlikely to get 1/8 turn on the bolts.
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#18
by
rs899
on 11 Nov, 2011 09:53
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I appreciate your confidence in my 11mm block, however neither you nor I at this moment know with certainty what's at the bottom of those holes or what the threads look like. When I re-installed the head bolts back in the Clinton Administration , they were clean and pretty, but who's to say what they look like now? Most times when I pull an engine apart I think - ouch- how did that possibly hold up! I will take my chances with the status quo...
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#19
by
Toby
on 11 Nov, 2011 10:06
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If they were clean and dry when you assembled it, they are clean and dry now. The gunk gets in on disassembly, it does not magically appear when the motor is in service.
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#20
by
rs899
on 11 Nov, 2011 10:47
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I respectfully disagree. I have pulled a number of stock engines apart and it wasn't I who put that mung in the holes. If it wasn't me it must have been magic ( or Ford or GM or VW)...or the combustion process over the years
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#21
by
rabbitman
on 11 Nov, 2011 15:05
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I respectfully disagree. I have pulled a number of stock engines apart and it wasn't I who put that mung in the holes. If it wasn't me it must have been magic ( or Ford or GM or VW)...or the combustion process over the years
X2
I just redid my rabbits HG last week and the bolts looks terrible, oily goo in the threads and down the holes and I KNOW it wasn't like that when I put the head on in '06.
I filled the bolt holes with brakecleen or gas (whatever was sitting there) and blew it out with an air nozzle that I'd stuck a small hose on so I could put it to the bottom and blow everything out. I did that quite a few times and also modified a head bolt to act like a tap (cut grooves down the sides) and ran that through until it was clean, then I did the gas/blow it out thing again.
Assuming no oil will get in the threads is like assuming the bolt head/washer and head where the washer touches are a perfect seal.
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#22
by
BigVWman
on 11 Nov, 2011 17:58
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x3 on 11mm blocks. They were a poor design and vw quickly realized that and changed them accordingly. The tech bulletins and issues with the 11mm are very well documented. Vw doesn't change designs to accommodate poor mechanic work.
On the gasket question and some of the difference of opinion i had with some posts above, IF the OP used original fiber style gasket, i may be mistaken on not doing 1k retorque. After some research it appears a clear definition that Metal headgaskets as i have been using lately are not retorque gaskets, i checked my reinz papers that i could find, however the one nos fiber gasket i had did show a 1k retorque. If you do retorque be sure not to loosen the "stretch" bolts= only one forward movement.
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#23
by
Luckypabst
on 11 Nov, 2011 18:27
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But that's drifting into the context of non-stock modifications. Since the initial post didn't mention any modifications, we should assume that we're talking about a stock fiber head gasket.
I'm not trying to bust yer balls specifically BigVWMan, but I see soooo much drifting conversation and misinformation here... far worse than on any other enthusiast site I frequent, that it gets a little frustrating. If nothing else, it serves to confuse the wet-behind-the-ears noob that chooses to search and mine the knowledge base rather than asking outright.
Chris
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#24
by
BigVWman
on 11 Nov, 2011 19:44
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I do agree threads here stray a little but personally i like that about this site. If you want a stern by the status quo there are site o plenty like tdiclub where new ideas, off the wall thoughts, and modifications are taboo.Not trying to single out or be a douche either but the original poster is far from a wet behind the ears newbie mentioning he flips vw's regularly and usually does mk4 and newer(mostly all metal headgasket BTW) and mentions its an 85 mech head on a 89 hydro block with a 3rd oil passage blocked. The truely proper way for any of us to answer his question would have been to ask for more details before spouting off opinion myself included! HOWEVER the first sentenance of my first response was IMO the only correct answer and is true in either case-FOLLOW THE HEAD GASKET MANUFACTURERS INSTRUCTIONS- it works for newbs to0
just my 2c and not trying to offend anyone!
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#25
by
Luckypabst
on 12 Nov, 2011 08:09
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Yea, the OP wasn't my concern, this person certainly had no issue and did a fine job... but there seems to be a general rebellion around here where folks are looking for any reason to NOT follow the manufacturers directions regarding head gaskets. And people do search old threads so when they see conflicting data or even ideas that support their desire to invent their own procedure, it breeds confusion and disaster.
At some point, I just want to smack people around and say 'do it right or buy a civic'
Being a few beers deep last night didn't do much for my patience either...
We are on the same page for sure... Follow the damn manufacturer's procedure! Lol
Chris
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#26
by
BigVWman
on 12 Nov, 2011 08:16
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I understand completely! Hopefully we can save them before they go civic and get them straight!
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#27
by
ORCoaster
on 12 Nov, 2011 19:35
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Let em go get a civic, Then we can work them through dropping in a 1.6 NA into it and see how good of mileage they get.
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#28
by
Luckypabst
on 12 Nov, 2011 20:33
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LOL... I'd love to have the build quality of my old 81 Corolla powered by the ALH stashed away in the corner of the garage. Unfortunately I'd be underwater with the market value before even getting the 20R(?) unbolted.
Chris
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#29
by
ORCoaster
on 13 Nov, 2011 16:59
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Sometimes it isn't the economic factor that drives us to do insane things now is it. Cost be damned, yank that sucker and drop in something decent