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#15
by
pyro7890
on 12 Dec, 2010 13:52
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torqued them to 105 and still leaking. iam not sure what to do i am very frustrated thinking of selling since its at least running maybe someone who knows could fix it. i could take the head off and make sure it is not warped i geuss
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#16
by
Quantum TD
on 12 Dec, 2010 15:34
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Something just occurred to me. Did you install the head with the exhaust manifold installed, or did you install it after you installed the head?
If you installed if before you installed the head, the lower ears of the manifold could be holding the head off the block. I've heard of that happening before. Basically, the flanges of the exhaust manifold project beyond the lower surface of the head. When you install it and don't have the head centered properly, the flanges of the manifold will prevent you from torquing down the head.
Something to check for.
If you hadn't checked the head for warpage before you installed the new gasket, well, that's just dumb.
If you did install the manifold after installing/torquing the head, then I'd go up to 115lbs of torque and see what happens.
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#17
by
Rabbit TD
on 12 Dec, 2010 17:59
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have not tried more torque yet but will post results
I have the 12 m/m ARP's in my 1600 T/D and after the first warm up I retorque to 100 from the initial 85 and then retorque it about every 10,000 mi. or so. Seems like we have the valve covers off a lot anyway for one reason or anoter.
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#18
by
pyro7890
on 13 Dec, 2010 07:14
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checked the head, seemed good couldnt get the feeler gauge under but did not check the block
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#19
by
745 turbogreasel
on 18 Dec, 2010 15:01
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If you installed if before you installed the head, the lower ears of the manifold could be holding the head off the block. I've heard of that happening before. Basically, the flanges of the exhaust manifold project beyond the lower surface of the head. When you install it and don't have the head centered properly, the flanges of the manifold will prevent you from torquing down the head.
I've tried to do that before
torqued them to 105 and still leaking. iam not sure what to do i am very frustrated thinking of selling since its at least running maybe someone who knows could fix it. i could take the head off and make sure it is not warped i geuss
Consider the ARP studs are fine thread, and don't stretch like the TTY bolts, so you are at maybe 3x the clamping force of a stock bolt.
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#20
by
pyro7890
on 19 Dec, 2010 15:39
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i am thinking of buying new head gasket and retrying this, dose anyone have suggestions on what i need to do? my plan is to take the head off and make absolutly sure that the head and the block are not warped. make absolutly sure the thread holes are clean and good. make sure i have plenty of arp lube on my head studs and then i think i will do 3 or 4 torque sequences up to at least 100 ft lbs
any thoughts thanks
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#21
by
Quantum TD
on 19 Dec, 2010 18:30
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I'm not sure how the ARP lube affects torque, but I just talked a guy through a head gasket job on a 2001 TDI beetle. He was nervous on the last pass, thinking that that torque was too high. He did the 30, then 44 ft lbs. When he did the first 90 degrees, his torsion-bar torque wrench read 95 ft-lbs. Not having done an HG on a TDI, he got nervous and thought that number was too high. I told him that they finish about 110-120, so he should be fine. When I talked with him today, he said on the final pass, they finished about 115-120 all around.
Now, if ARPs lube is something special taht dramatically reduces the coefficient of friction, then you'll have as much or more clamping force at 100 as you would with just WD-40 and 120 ft-lbs.
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#22
by
pyro7890
on 19 Dec, 2010 20:25
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arp claims it is the most important part but they also sell it so haha you know how that works. but i think it is good stuff and i am sure it is better than just using oil or wd 40. i am mostly concerned that the block is warped. i have an extra block around but i don't want to sink another 600 dollars into this car i have already bought a new head and the bolts and the new block would have to be re bored with new pistons of course
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#23
by
theman53
on 20 Dec, 2010 05:19
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The moly is pretty slick, but I don't really think it is any slicker than WD40. It will stay in place tons longer, but WD is very slick. There is a difference between using it and not. IIRC they said 30% more torque on 30w motor oil instead of there lube.
If you buy another gasket coat it with the aviation grade permatex/hylomar and clamp it down good. It should be fine.
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#24
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 20 Dec, 2010 05:33
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If you installed if before you installed the head, the lower ears of the manifold could be holding the head off the block. I've heard of that happening before. Basically, the flanges of the exhaust manifold project beyond the lower surface of the head. When you install it and don't have the head centered properly, the flanges of the manifold will prevent you from torquing down the head.
I've tried to do that before
torqued them to 105 and still leaking. iam not sure what to do i am very frustrated thinking of selling since its at least running maybe someone who knows could fix it. i could take the head off and make sure it is not warped i geuss
Consider the ARP studs are fine thread, and don't stretch like the TTY bolts, so you are at maybe 3x the clamping force of a stock bolt.
Furthermore you may have squished the 'plastic' gasket away from the sealing area...
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#25
by
pyro7890
on 12 Feb, 2011 15:14
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been a while since i was on this thread. so i have been trying to figure out what to do with this blasted engine
i do not think i want to use an mls. this is just a motor to last me until i find a nice turbo diesel motor to build and put in my 81 rabbit
ok so my thought is to get another fiber gasket and put aviation gasket sealer on it and position the gasket better. good idea?
i think that some of the problem was that the gasket dose not position it self very well it seemed like it could be way off if you slipped
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#26
by
rabbitman
on 12 Feb, 2011 16:31
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I'm not sure how the ARP lube affects torque, but I just talked a guy through a head gasket job on a 2001 TDI beetle. He was nervous on the last pass, thinking that that torque was too high. He did the 30, then 44 ft lbs. When he did the first 90 degrees, his torsion-bar torque wrench read 95 ft-lbs. Not having done an HG on a TDI, he got nervous and thought that number was too high. I told him that they finish about 110-120, so he should be fine. When I talked with him today, he said on the final pass, they finished about 115-120 all around.
Now, if ARPs lube is something special taht dramatically reduces the coefficient of friction, then you'll have as much or more clamping force at 100 as you would with just WD-40 and 120 ft-lbs.
With ARP the top threads (where the nut goes on) is quite a bit finer than the block threads so it'll clamp harder with less torque.
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#27
by
Quantum TD
on 12 Feb, 2011 21:20
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Check your deck surface with a straightedge if you pull the head. Anything more than .005 means you'll have to mill it. Generally, anything more than .009 means you may have to heat the head to straighten it, or mill the surface and line-bore the camshaft holes.
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#28
by
pyro7890
on 13 Feb, 2011 07:06
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checked already it was fine around .002 i mostly want to know if the aviation gasket sealer will be ok on a fiber gasket
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#29
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 13 Feb, 2011 07:09
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shouldnt need sealer on a fiber gasket with .002 warpage.. thats pretty straight..
sealer is more for metal gaskets.