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Sharing: '83 Audi 5000 TD by mmitocky on 20 Jun, 2010 16:34
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Hey, Ive been reading the forum on a regular basis, but haven't had much to post. Well I finally got my car running, after a FULL engine rebuild. I will be sure to post up some pictures (what I have anyways) of the car and some of the machine work that went into the engine -- long story short: the timing belt broke in the dude's garage from whom I bought the car, so I pulled the head, rebuilt it, and put her back together with the original bottom end (tiny dents in pistons, otherwise fine). Not even 400 miles later, a precombustion chamber insert fell out of the head and came apart in the cylinder. The damage was extensive, in one cylinder at least...the piston was scrapped, the cylinder wall was scored up and the head now had fragments of inconel smashed into it. I got the block bored/honed oversize, new Kolbenshmidt pistons, welded/machined the cylinder head back into commission and finally after tooo much time and a rediculous amount of money (for an engine numerous people told me was JUNK, from the factory), I am finally enjoying the car!
Here is a short clip of the engine idling i posted on youtube:
Audi 5000 TD engine
Tell me what you experts think of the sound. It was much much noisier when I first got it running, but I have managed to get the timing, internal pressure, and injectors (All thanks to this forum!) to a point where it sounds like a well tuned diesel (I think, anyways...). After about 1000 rpm's when I am driving, the engine smooths out and runs like a dream, with the turbo whistling nicely over the exhaust sound...it really is a pleasure to drive. Right now everything is stock mechanically, and I am getting about 33 mpg's with the crappy 3-spd auto the car came with...so far so good. I have a diesel 5-spd box I am almost ready to put in, the old Audi automatic works like it should, but really doesn't give me a good sense of control over the drivetrain.
Well I will be sure to post some more pictures, and any videos if someone wants to see them, because I know these cars are few and far between. In the meantime, I am interested in installing a diesel catalytic converter if/when I build a nice 2.5" exhaust for it, but I am wondering exactly what I can expect from that. I am not a huge fan of black smoke, or in general the strong diesel exhaust smell that hovers around on hot days...so I am wondering if a CAT might clean it up a bit. I definitely don't wanna lose alot of the turbine noise, either, so I am hoping someone with CAT experience can weigh in on the effects.
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#1 by rallydiesel on 20 Jun, 2010 17:15
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Beautiful resto. Nice job! I'm sure you'll enjoy it even more when you get that 5 speed in.
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#2 by rabbid79 on 20 Jun, 2010 18:33
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I as so impressed that you kept that car running. Most of these type 43's are basket-cases, but yours is quite nice. I love the elegant lines of these cars. It sounds great. I still miss my T43 TD. I am a 5-cyl TD aficionado, so let me know if I can help. Thanks also for the YouTube video.
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#3 by the caveman on 20 Jun, 2010 18:35
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Personally i don't see any problem in installing a cat on your car. I did it on my 1990 transporter. Just make sure you get the right size and for diesel. After installing it, try driving without a muffler, you may not need it between the turbo and cat quieting down the exhaust.
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#4 by lord_verminaard on 21 Jun, 2010 07:34
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Or you can just run B20-B50 and that would reduce smoke and smell. Then up the boost to burn any excess.
Beautiful car, and I'm not a fan of 4-doors. I'd love to drop a proper 5-cylinder diesel in my Coupe but I don't think I can make the power I would want with an IDI.
That's also pretty impressive milage for a car of that size with an auto nonetheless. With a 5-speed and a little more boost the car should move pretty good and get great MPG too.
Brendan -
#5 by Rabbit on Roids on 21 Jun, 2010 08:13
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GIVE ME MY CAR BACK!!!
someone stole my car and restored it!
looks awesome anyway. need any gold body parts or interior parts? i have the EXACT same car..
and i would avoid the catalytic converter. diesels with catalytic converters stink worse than ones without. my dads 06 duramax smelled worse with a catalytic converter by the way.. it goes from the normal diesel exhaust smell without a cat, to some obnoxious smell ive never smelled before. kinda like diesel, oil, garbage, and styro-foam all burning at the same time.
to each his own, but i would just run bio diesel in it and scratch the idea of a cat. its gonna take away power, MPGs, and that sweet turbo whistle. biodiesel really smells almost nothing like normal diesel. atleast you dont have a n/a car, they really smell when you turn the fueling up. -
#6 by the caveman on 21 Jun, 2010 17:52
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GIVE ME MY CAR BACK!!!
someone stole my car and restored it!
looks awesome anyway. need any gold body parts or interior parts? i have the EXACT same car..
and i would avoid the catalytic converter. diesels with catalytic converters stink worse than ones without. my dads 06 duramax smelled worse with a catalytic converter by the way.. it goes from the normal diesel exhaust smell without a cat, to some obnoxious smell ive never smelled before. kinda like diesel, oil, garbage, and styro-foam all burning at the same time.
to each his own, but i would just run bio diesel in it and scratch the idea of a cat. its gonna take away power, MPGs, and that sweet turbo whistle. biodiesel really smells almost nothing like normal diesel. atleast you dont have a n/a car, they really smell when you turn the fueling up.
Interesting that you say that. I was worried that my truck would smell also, but it's fine. I seem to think that they are smelly when cold , but fine once hot and driven. Very bad when it's winter and it's in the shop with the door closed; basically intolerable. As for power, i used one from a TDI and didn't notice any real power drop, not that i have lots to start with.
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#7 by mmitocky on 21 Jun, 2010 20:05
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Thanks for the comments guys, I suppose a catalytic converter might not be the best solution yet. As far as restoring stuff on this car, so far is has only been the engine! The rest of the car had 95,000 miles on it, and was a Texas car. The previous owner drove it up to Ohio I think in 1992 and it basically sat in hid garage ever since! The car has never seen snow, there is NO rust, and aside from one power window not working, everything functions! I will certainly do my best to preserve the car for the next owner to enjoy...I won't have it forever.
Alright, some more pictures...some of the work that went into the engine. My apologies for not capturing all of the work with a camera, the truth is I always wanted to document my work, but never enough to interrupt what I have going on to grab a camera! I just get too excited to do the next thing, and don't wanna stop for picture time. ANYWAYS here we go...
Here is a the head above the cylinder which the chamber insert broke up in. This is after I knocked the rest of the inserts out, cut the valve seats out (was gonna weld the head in this area, and weld and re-machine the precombustion chamber bores, so I figured I would deal with the cracks between the valves too) and sandblasted the head.
Same area with some weld prep goin on.
I did all of my welding on this head with a Dynasty 200, a TIG with 200 amp max capacity. Some people claim you need mega amps to weld heads....and I disagree. A good preheat, along with maintaining a solid 300-350 degrees let my welder work just fine. For the welders out there -- I used a 2% Thoriated electrode with the pulser set somewhere around 50 pulses per second, the polarity changeover frequency around 100 hz, and the wave balance around 70% (going from memory...). The pulsing seemed to agitate the puddle, and really helped clean the welds in the casting.
This is clearly post-welding, re-machining the insert bores on the bridgeport. I was able to make the inserts go in with a solid interference fit, by controlling the bore sizes with the boring head, in hoped of negating any future "fallouts". I did things in kind of a backwards manner, but it all worked out in the end -- here's how I rebuild the head. I welded the bores you see in this pic, then bored out the insert holes by myself. I then had a machine shop cut the deck surface, reinstall new valve seats, cut the seats, valves, valve guides, ect. WITH THE PRECOMBUSTION CHAMBER INSERTS OUT OF THE HEAD. I then got the head back, got it nice and hot, and slammed in ice cold chamber inserts (interference fit). Now, the inserts weren't all uniform in size, or cylindrical for that matter, and so after they were pounded in they displaced a small amount of aluminum around where they went into the head (sorry for no picture of this). The inserts also stood slightly proud (roughly .010") of the deck surface when installed. I then put the head back on the bridgeport, and used a fly cutter to cut the inserts to a height of about .002-.003" PROUD of the deck. This would allow slightly more crush on the headgasket around the inserts to hold them in place (yeah I was pretty upset over the first fallout).
I was anxious to see if I could cut my block's deck surface on the bridgeport, and so I made a 8" flycutter with about $80 worth of materials. Long story short...I could! I trammed the mill, got the block on the table, took tiny tiny cuts (.001" or .002" at most I think) and got 'er done! I finished the cut with a brand new brazed carbide bit, and the finish was perfect, nice and shiny. Great sense of satisfaction from this part of it!
Another pic...this is not of the final pass.
I actually tried to hone my cylinders oversize by myself too
but quickly realized it was going to take WAYYY too long to justify the cost of a professional job. Good experience though. I don't feel like explaining the nonsense I went through to create this honing tub-thing right now...if someone wants to really know what the hell is going on here, just ask and Ill post it up later....
Well, that is all that I could find right now, thanks for checking out my post! -
#8 by clarkrep on 21 Jun, 2010 20:37
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Thanks for Sharing.
Nice work there milling the head. As a machinist i can appreciate the finesse required to get the press fit on the precups. Did you make the smaller diameter the press fit or the larger(thinner) or both? If I'm not mistaken they only press fit on the smaller originally. How much smaller did you make the bores if you remember? Inconel isn't as bad to machine as people act like is it?
Oh yeah and do you have better pics of that flycutter? Specifically the tool holding area.
I once surfaced a block by setting it on the magnetic chuck of the surface grinder at work, worked well...
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#9 by colectb on 22 Jun, 2010 21:43
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Beautiful car! I'm in the process of getting my 83 on the road; It's almost as nice as yours, but white. Right now I have the td engine in an '80 car with the five speed, and I definitely love the car! Wait until you take an all-highway 55 mph road trip, and I bet you'll see over 40 mpg.
Also, I have two cracked heads lying around, would you be able to repair them for me for a reasonable price? Or is this something that you would never want to touch again? -
#10 by RabbitJockey on 23 Jun, 2010 08:43
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i'm curious, how were the injectors looking seeing as how the prechamber fell in?
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#11 by mmitocky on 23 Jun, 2010 16:02
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clarkrep: Sure, here is a picture of the tool holder in the fly cutter. Its pretty basic:
As far as the tolerances on the interference fit, it is not too simple. The chamber inserts had a taper on the small diameter barrel, with the part that enters the head first being the smallest. I cannot remember how much taper exactly, but I wanna say at least a .010" difference from one end of the barrel to the other. Anyways I picked a point midway along the barrel and shot for a -.003" difference...this let the inserts fall in the head about halfway when everything was done being machined. The bore for the large OD portion of the insert was just slightly under as well....-.002" to -.003". This sounds good in theory, but the inserts were far from perfectly cylindrical, and all were different by measurable amounts. Right before I installed them I did some hand fitting to get each insert to fall in to roughly the same depth in each hole, and matched each insert to a specific bore. I hope that makes sense!
colectb: I am still capable of welding stuff, and I wouldn't mind helping you out with those, but I have lost access to the machine tools I used to do a lot of my own machining, so all I would be able to do for you is prep, and weld what needs to be fixed. After I welded mine, I took it to an excellent and reputable machine shop in Akron, OH called R&R Engine and Machine to do all of the important deck and valve work. The head was warped slightly from the welding procedure, and so they were able to 'bend' the head flat again (all this really affected was the cam bore...but the cam bore is obviously pretty important, so they got the journals straight again). Everything else worked out just fine, and they even complimented me on my welding work
To your question: show me what want done, and Ill give you an idea of cost. I usually charge $40/hr for any fab/welding/machine work I do for people, so if that is immediately too much to pay in your mind, sorry! Just be prepared to spend a couple hundred bucks at a good engine machine shop to get the head back into useable shape after the welding.
Trev0rbr: The injectors were basically the same as what is in my new engine, I had just installed new bosio nozzles and rebuilt the injectors before my engine broke, so I can't put much blame on them. The timing may have been ever so slightly askew, so that could have been one reason. Also, before I put the head back on, all of the chamber inserts were not *perfectly* flush with the deck surface, some were ever so slightly below it (.004"-.006" maybe?). I disregarded them out of ignorance and thought the gasket compression would fill the gap. This is where I place most of the fault: on my installation of a sub-par head assembly.
ObscuredByClouds: NOT YET! I really can't see myself owning this car forever, but it does have a ton of character, and so I will enjoy it for year or two. Maybe eventually you will see it for sale, in even better shape than it is now!
You guys with the 5000 TD's: post up some pics/vids! I can never find enough pictures/videos/information on these cars on the internet, it would be nice to see more of these things around. I seriously scoured You-Tube videos for VW diesel engines running, in order to figure out what my engine should sound like if it was running well! So if you have anything, feel free to share! -
#12 by clarkrep on 07 Jul, 2010 08:12
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I wouldn't mind seeing more pics or hearing about the honing tub setup. Is that a positive displacement hone(not sure that's even the proper name)?
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#13 by mmitocky on 07 Jul, 2010 17:29
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About the honing tub: I don't think I have any more pictures of it...I will look anyways. These are the parts I bought/gathered to complete the setup...
A large storage tub (big enough to fit the block in, obviously) from Home Depot
A Harbor Freight 'liquid' transfer pump (not the diesel approved one, the cheaper one)
Some clear vinyl tubing, 3/8" ID
Kerosene
Automatic transmission fluid
Precision cylinder hone....not sure what a "positive displacement" hone is...this is a link to the exact hone bought from McMaster
http://www.mcmaster.com/ctlg/DisplCtlgPage.aspx?ReqTyp=CATALOG&CtlgPgNbr=2672&RelatedCtlgPgs=2672,2671,2685&CtlgEdition=116&ScreenWidth=1600&McMMainWidth=1395&ToolsetID=ToolMultiPageNav&ToolsetAct=
1/2" electric drill
Bore gauge
I didn't buy all of this to attempt honing my block, the hone for example my dad purchased for a hydraulic cylinder project at work, so the total price for the parts was under 100$ I think. I concocted a honing lubricant from mixing kerosene and automatic transmission fluid...enough of it to circulate around my tank and pump setup (I read somewhere online that mixture could be used). I used the harbor freight pump to circulate to fluid, and made a simple spray bar to sit above the cylinder and wash it down while I honed. I just rolled a piece of 3/8" tubing around an appropriately sized pipe, and drilled a couple small holes around the inner perimeter to spray the fluid. I crimped one end of the tube, and tacked it to a heavy piece of pipe, so that it would sit on top the block and not move around.
I set the tank at an angle, so that the fluid would pool in one end, and let me have a couple inches of fluid for my suction line. I originally tried running the setup with a giant inline fuel filter I bought from autozone, to filter the honing fluid, but it clogged within 15 minutes of running, so I just took it out of the loop.
The hone has a micrometer adjustment on it, so you can adjust the preload and hone away. The hone is rigid, however, meaning that there aren't any springs putting pressure on the stones, only the adjustment screw trying to press the stones outward. This makes the hone pretty difficult to turn. The 1/2" drill had plenty of power, but it was quite some work to hold the drill body from turning. Also, if I went too low in the bore with the honing head, where the crank webs are, the hone would stop dead in its tracks and the drill would take my arms for a ride. Definitely not a laid back procedure.
Anyways it did work! I would hone for a while, adjust the preload, hone for a while, and then measure. I was also able to stay in one part of the bore for a longer time than the rest of the bore (dwell, if you will) to get the cylinder true. The tendency was for the top of the bore to be larger than the bottom, so I spent alot of time near the bottom playing catch-up. It takes a loong time however, to get anywhere serious. I cant remember how much time per thousanth or anything, but I recall thinking that to get one cylinder to the first oversize would have taken a couple hours of nonstop honing.
Let me know if you have any more ?'s
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#14 by burn_your_money on 07 Jul, 2010 18:21
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Great project.
What kind of mileage do you expect with the 5 speed?