Cylinder Head - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• Cylinder Head by ffgb on 31 Mar, 2010 18:12
• Every machine shop that I spoke with so far said that they would resurface the head regardless.  I explained if the head wasn't warped at all, they all said they would resurface it.  I further explained about if the head was warped that resurfacing doesn't exactly fix the problem, that the camshaft would not be straight when installed.  Every machine shop said it was standard procedure to resurface and just put a thicker head gasket on and call it good.  I need new guides and valves regardless, I am just iffy about them resurfacing the head, especially because they all said they leave the precups in.  What gives?
• #1 by theman53 on 31 Mar, 2010 18:32
• What gives is every machine shop you have talked to. I would ship it out before letting them touch what I got, but to each his own. Air cooled engines plus in tiffin ohio if you are looking I recommend.
• #2 by Vincent Waldon on 31 Mar, 2010 18:38
• .. and the fact that they all think a thicker headgasket is how you compensate for shaving the head means they really don't understand what you're asking them to do, unfortunately.
  
  It *is* standard practice to resurface the head very very slightly... you need a really really good sealing surface to seal properly at 23:1.   Some shops do it with the cups in, others remove the cups... depends on the gear they will be using.
• #3 by ffgb on 31 Mar, 2010 22:01
• This sucks!  I want my head rebuilt because it needs it.  I am having the bottom end done, just need the top end done.  At this point, I am willing to purchase a brand new head or rebuilt head.  Any suggestions on good places to buy and at a fair price?  I am located in Southern California.
  Thanks
• #4 by Powered by Spearco on 31 Mar, 2010 22:12
• What type do you have, Hydro or Solid head?
• #5 by 745 turbogreasel on 01 Apr, 2010 00:04
• If you get the valve seat depth and stem length right afterward, skimming the head doesn't change anything.
  
  This is for TDI, but most of the info applies
  http://oldforums.tdiclub.com/showthread.php?t=175661
  I recently sent Frank a TDI head, and was real pleased with how it came back, though I don't think he likes working on IDI.
• #6 by theman53 on 01 Apr, 2010 06:00
• Quote from: ffgb on 31 Mar, 2010 22:01

  This sucks!  I want my head rebuilt because it needs it.  I am having the bottom end done, just need the top end done.  At this point, I am willing to purchase a brand new head or rebuilt head.  Any suggestions on good places to buy and at a fair price?  I am located in Southern California.
  Thanks
  

  PM sent
• #7 by ffgb on 07 Apr, 2010 20:52
• Well, I am receiving my cylinder head in a couple days.  It needed 4 intake valves and 8 valve guides.  They will lightly resurface it, just to make a clean surface.  They will resurface the head with the precups in.  Has anyone run into problems later with the precups left in during the resurfacing?
  
  Thanks
• #8 by rabbitman on 07 Apr, 2010 21:01
• Quote from: ffgb on 07 Apr, 2010 20:52

  Well, I am receiving my cylinder head in a couple days.  It needed 4 intake valves and 8 valve guides.  They will lightly resurface it, just to make a clean surface.  They will resurface the head with the precups in.  Has anyone run into problems later with the precups left in during the resurfacing?
  
  Thanks
  

  
  Make sure they go real slow with the cutter or it'll sorta "rise" over the prechambers while cutting the aluminum and they won't be even with the head anymore.
• #9 by Fisher on 08 Apr, 2010 09:25
• The Head can't be milled with the standard milling machine because of the hard Pre Cup, it has to be done on a grinding machine.  Not every Shop has that equipment.
• #10 by ffgb on 08 Apr, 2010 17:10
• Well the machine shop called and said my cylinder head is done and ready to pick up.  I asked how much did they had to mill, and they said they had to mill the head more in the middle.  Total was 3 passes for a total of 8 thousands of an inch.  I don't know what to do.  I thought the head was in spec, because they said this was the work that needed to be done.  I didn't not know that the head was warped that bad.  What do you all think.  Total for the work was $275, but I only paid $100 for them to start the work.  They finished and I can pay the rest for the cylinder head, but I am totally rebuilding the engine and wonder if I shouldn't take this cylinder and accept it at a loss.  Further, they haven't line bored anything.
  What should I do?  Pay $175 and slap the head on with a thicker head gasket and call it good, or am I asking for problems down the road?
• #11 by Henchman on 08 Apr, 2010 17:16
• Not sure I would worry about 8 thou.  That's probably less than the carbon build up on the pistons on disassembly.
  
  Ian
• #12 by Luckypabst on 08 Apr, 2010 20:05
• I know it's too late now... but Rimco in Santa Ana has been the VW machine shop for some time. They knocked 9 thou off my head, with pre-cups installed and shipped back to me for less than $100. Mine didn't require any additional work and I sent them the head disassembled except for the valves. Also to note - that .009" they took was in addition to the amount removed by another machinist that left the head in worse shape than when I brought it to him. Your .008" is nothing to worry about...
  Rimco also checked the cam alignment and it was still in spec...
  
  Chris
• #13 by sdwarf36 on 08 Apr, 2010 20:29
• ffgb-let me tell you what its like to walk a mile in your machinists shoes. Here comes in someone that read all the books -and everything on the internet-and knows everything -ABOUT HIS ONE AND ONLY ENGINE-even though hes never laid a hand on it. While the machinist has rebuilt 5 heads a week-for the last 20 years-seen all the problems come + go-know what to look out for-what needs to be done to have a happy customer that has a working component-knows what has screwed up in the past that has cost him and/or the customer money.
   Look around the machine shop-se all that big heavy equipment-you think that stuff is cheap? My boss just bought a new surfacer last week-$18k. (I'm shocked he found a decent one that cheap.)  What does your machinist charge to cut a head? $65? Wanna do the math to see how long it takes to pay off the machine? If he didn't know what he was doing-you think he'd be getting the work in?
   What happens when the customer has a problem--ANY problem? Call the machinist-HE musta screwed up-regardless of the fact he has no control over the customers abilties-or lack thereof-on their 1st major engine job. Its like blaming the butcher because you burnt the steak.
   So the machinist suggests what he KNOWs will offer the best chance of working-to cover his ass AND the customers. Thats what a good business man does.
   Last fall I did a head gasket on my Jetta-so I surfaced the head on our old machine. It has both grinding + rotary broach (cutter) I ground it-it took over an hour because of having to go real slow-you need the grinder for the cups-but aluminum doesn't like to grind. It was a pain-it would have a been a money LOSING job if it was a paying gig. (Our new machine has a CBN cutter-I'll be doing my TD head next week to try it out.)
   Auto machine work-as much as I like it and many years have devoted to it-is probably the least profitable area of the automotive field-the wrokers dont get rich+ neither does the shop owner.
• #14 by ffgb on 08 Apr, 2010 21:04
• Thank You, I appreciate all the information.  Now did you use a 2 notch or 3 notch gasket with all that material removed?