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N/A intake idea, OK or hokey beyond belief?
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 08:46
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I really want to see how much I can wring out of my N/A vanagon. Turbo for me means a lot more than just slapping a spinner on there and I just can't afford all of the upgrades needed to do it well. So I'm upgrading the breathing on the n/a while I save up for a performance diesel IP.
I already got a dual downpipe exhaust for it and changed to an external cone air filter. Now I'm looking at the intake manifold.
Calculations for optimal runner length for each intake tract (placing 2nd 3rd and 4th harmonics into the 2000-4800 rpm range) comes out to 33 inches!
do you think it would work to use braided stainless hoses instead of hard tubing for this app? If I did, I could run them up into the D pillar, terminate into a box with velocity stacks and have a nice big cone filter there for them. I know it sounds goofy, but do you think it would work, or make a difference?
IIRC 2nd harmonic +10%, 3rd harmonic +7%, 4th harmonic +4%
I know this is no VNT build, but thanks for looking.
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#1
by
the caveman
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:00
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I'm doing as you are, but already have one of Giles wonderful pumps. Thing is that i can feel that my intake and exhaust are restricting higher revs. Next year i'll build up an exhaust with a dual manifold, 2" pipe etc. As for an intake i guess you can go all nuts and fab something up with long runners like you say, but there has to be diminishing returns at some point. I am gonna just use a 1Y or 1X intake and put an air filter box at the bottom of the d pillar and seal it off so the air box is pressurized
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#2
by
OM617
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:08
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Why get a different pump? Without the extra air of a turbo, the stock pump should be more than capable of giving it all the fuel it can handle.
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#3
by
the caveman
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:15
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Why get a different pump? Without the extra air of a turbo, the stock pump should be more than capable of giving it all the fuel it can handle.
I suggest you read all you can about pump modifications and what is possible to do. I'm sure i have 10-15 more hp than with a stock pump- with more to come.
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#4
by
theman53
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:27
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I really want to see how much I can wring out of my N/A vanagon. Turbo for me means a lot more than just slapping a spinner on there and I just can't afford all of the upgrades needed to do it well. So I'm upgrading the breathing on the n/a while I save up for a performance diesel IP.
I already got a dual downpipe exhaust for it and changed to an external cone air filter. Now I'm looking at the intake manifold.
Calculations for optimal runner length for each intake tract (placing 2nd 3rd and 4th harmonics into the 2000-4800 rpm range) comes out to 33 inches!
do you think it would work to use braided stainless hoses instead of hard tubing for this app? If I did, I could run them up into the D pillar, terminate into a box with velocity stacks and have a nice big cone filter there for them. I know it sounds goofy, but do you think it would work, or make a difference?
IIRC 2nd harmonic +10%, 3rd harmonic +7%, 4th harmonic +4%
I know this is no VNT build, but thanks for looking.
Wow. How do you calculate that? I think stainless hoses wouldn't be the best but I don't know what you could use.
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#5
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:28
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I'm not talking about getting a turbo pump, but a performance n/a pump.
Caveman, I notice a real improvement from about 75 Kph on up with an enclosed airbox intake in the D pillar. It helps me hold slight inclines at highway speed much better and willingly keeps pulling 'till I run out of gears, which happens pretty fast with my absurd transaxle.
Ok engineers, do you know any reasons why this choice of material (smooth hose with braided stainless sheath) would be unsuitable as an intake runner?
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#6
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:28
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33 inch runners? you messed something up. nothing should need 33" runners, added length actually impedes air flow.
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#7
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 09:45
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Right on Rabbit, I dropped it. Should be 16 1/2" total, thanks. Question remains the same regarding the tubing. I don't want a lot of weight/stress on my intake manifold and I don't have a lot of room to work with.
TheMan, for calculations I found some links off of vwvortex which I can't find now. There are a lot of them out there.
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#8
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 03 Jan, 2010 10:37
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16 1/2 inches sounds about right. probably really close to the same length of the runners on the stock manifold.
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#9
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 10:54
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16 1/2 inches sounds about right. probably really close to the same length of the runners on the stock manifold.
True for a Rabbit intake, but those don't fit on a vanagon, and the stock intake is stubby-
(pic taken from thesamba classifieds)
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#10
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 11:26
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Thanks for weighing in, Andrew. I think that the runner length/airbox on the n/a vanagon was selected for convenience of installation, not performance. I think that a shorter intake runner length resonates at a higher rpm, not a lower one.
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#11
by
rabbitman
on 03 Jan, 2010 11:29
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I'm pretty sure they dropped the max rpm and max hp on the diesel vanagon specifically to increase low-end torque. The max HP rating was dropped from 52HP to 48hp in the vanagon. I imagine that part of that was specifically resizing the runner lengths for lower rpm torque.
That's weird, I'm pretty sure in other cars the 1.5 was 48hp and the 1.6 was 52hp. So your saying they dropped the 1.6 to 48hp?
I bet they were good drag racers haha, 0-60......hopefully!!!!
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#12
by
Vanagoner
on 03 Jan, 2010 11:47
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I'm pretty sure they dropped the max rpm and max hp on the diesel vanagon specifically to increase low-end torque. The max HP rating was dropped from 52HP to 48hp in the vanagon. I imagine that part of that was specifically resizing the runner lengths for lower rpm torque.
That's weird, I'm pretty sure in other cars the 1.5 was 48hp and the 1.6 was 52hp. So your saying they dropped the 1.6 to 48hp? I bet they were good drag racers haha, 0-60......hopefully!!!!
Yep, they DE-TUNED the 1.6 for the Vanagons!?! When I first got mine in stock trim it was terrifyingly, dangerously slow. It is much better now (kinda keeps up with most traffic up to a point), but still workin' it.
I got the first calculator off of this thread-
http://74.125.47.132/search?q=cache:a9elpcbn4o0J:forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread%3Fid%3D942528+%22velocity+stacks%22+length+calculator+vwvortex&cd=1&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=uswhich is here-
http://www.bgsoflex.com/intakeln.htmlwhich confirms 33 inches, but the other rule-of thumb calcs come in at 16 inches.
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#13
by
Laurentian
on 03 Jan, 2010 14:02
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Interesting thread !
I also am debating on whether to continue running
my 1.6D daily as I have an MF and an AAZ at my disposal.
The car drips rustproofing, and I just love it to pieces so
it's a keeper and I would find it kind of neat to hop it up in
N/A version. The relibility and simplicity are appealing to me.
I guess things to do : Exhaust, intake and Giles pump.
Are the ME / MF heads / valves same?
Hugh
PS : Caveman, I am in Laval, would be nice to hook up at one
point, you have a lot of knowledge it seems.
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#14
by
the caveman
on 03 Jan, 2010 14:33
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Hey Laurentian. i work at Pinzgauer Canada on Cure Labelle in Ste Rose if you can pass by there.