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#15
by
maxfax
on 21 Oct, 2009 21:16
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^^^ What Steve said again!
I have actually seen a decent system that will do "dumpster to tank" with WVO.. However the size and amount of machinery used filled the back of the Suburban!
Plus the generator mounted under the hood to power it all was rather bulky... In reality it's just not practical..
AS far as fitment in the Tercel, I was wondering about oil pan clearance, been a while since I've looked over one of those but I thought the engine sort of sat on the trans.. Your car is a manual, right?
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#16
by
CathodeRayTube
on 21 Oct, 2009 22:53
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yes, it is a manual 6 speed (has extra low+5 speed). all of this isnt set in stone, i was planning to get the old toyota gas engine out and see what i have to work with as far as space and flywheel measurments go before i decide finally what i do with it. im restoring the whole car, repainting, lifting and doing the interior. the VW diesel is my first plan. if that wont work for w/e reason plan B is to go pure electric, but i decided against that because it would be alot more costly than i can swing right now. plan C is to just clean up the toyota 1.5l 3A gasser and put it back. I plan to create a website for this project and document everything. iv already taken lots of pictures of my rust repair work so far, wich i really have to get out of the way before i can move onto much else..
I want to ask though once again, all the damage from running a single tank setup comes from starting a cold engine on cold oil? correct? and everybody is telling me that it would make no difference if the cold engine was started on HOT preheated oil, it would still be a bad idea and would damage it the same way as cold oil would?
i did do some reading on the frybrid website as well as others, and i couldnt really find a real answer to my question there either, because i guess all the "single tank" systems that are discussed only consist of people dumping grease into there unmodified stock fuel systems with no heating whatsoever and expecting it to work. there are also several websites claiming to sell injector line heaters that allow cold starting to work (vegiecars dot com, and fattywagons dot com i think)...
again, my idea was to be able to start a cold engine on hot oil, not starting a cold engine on cold oil.
Im anxious to actually try the frying pan experiment that was suggested also...(outside away from combustibles of corse)
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#17
by
maxfax
on 22 Oct, 2009 00:12
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I want to ask though once again, all the damage from running a single tank setup comes from starting a cold engine on cold oil? correct? and everybody is telling me that it would make no difference if the cold engine was started on HOT preheated oil, it would still be a bad idea and would damage it the same way as cold oil would?
Yes you got it... AS far as oil temp, the reason for having the oil heated is to lower it's viscosity to that close of diesel fuel so that it will spray out the injector properly.. Engine temp out of the equation, if the oil is cold it basically dribbles out of the injector instead of spraying out in a fine mist (atomized). With the oil improperly atomized it does not burn properly and leaves the nasty deposites on your rings, cylinders, precups.. The nasty deposits often referred to as "coke" is the unburrned glycerine in the oil.. (The stuff that is removed when one makes biodiesel)
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.. Once again you'll end up with nasty coke deposites.. Maybe not as fast as say cold oil in a hot engine, but it'll happen...
Once you try the frying pan experiement (I'd suggest using a crappy cheap pan that you are not afraid to ruin) you'll be able to see it better...
The reason this isn;t a problem with diesel is that it natually has a lower viscosity to begin with, not to mention none of the nasty glycerine..
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#18
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 22 Oct, 2009 07:34
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after buying a car that has been ruined by VO/biofuel, i will never think the same way about it. im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel. its too god damn complicated. and i dont like the fact that you can give your engine a coke overdose. anyone have any reasons why its better than diesel besides the fact that waste oil is free and bio diesel is cheap? like any good valid reasons TO run it? or is it just pretty much not worth my time like ive been thinking? or can you actually wash all the glycerin out of bio fuel? all i know is i had an entire fuel filter of black goo when i bought my car and ran my first tank of real diesel in it. it was nasty, sticky black goo. and it stunk.
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#19
by
CathodeRayTube
on 22 Oct, 2009 09:33
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im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel.
I think that really is a shame, somebody elses mistake has biased you against something that is a good idea when done correctly. From my understanding, Biodiesel is a safe drop in replacement for Dinodiesel and wont do any harm whatsoever...aside from possibly eating up rubber seals, wich can be remedied. Vegitable oil is what seems to be very tricky to deal with and use, and somebodys poor implimentation of it is what ruined your engine. Im all for both providing that they can be used in ways that wont destroy hardware, because i like the whole "earth friendly" thing.
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.
Isnt the piston at the height of the compression stroke when the fuel is sprayed in? isnt the air in the chamber highly compressed and indeed at 300F+ when the fuel is sprayed in? and doesnt the fuel immediately combust upon hitting the hot air charge?
or am i confused with direct injection or something else?
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#20
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 22 Oct, 2009 09:49
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im absolutely 100% anti vegi/bio fuel.
I think that really is a shame, somebody elses mistake has biased you against something that is a good idea when done correctly. From my understanding, Biodiesel is a safe drop in replacement for Dinodiesel and wont do any harm whatsoever...aside from possibly eating up rubber seals, wich can be remedied. Vegitable oil is what seems to be very tricky to deal with and use, and somebodys poor implimentation of it is what ruined your engine. Im all for both providing that they can be used in ways that wont destroy hardware, because i like the whole "earth friendly" thing.
Now let's say you do have the oil hot, and atomizing properly but you are spraying it into a combustion chamber that is at 70 deg F instead of say 300 deg F.. THe oil sprays in and instantly starts to cool down (condense of sorts) before the combustion happens.
Isnt the piston at the height of the compression stroke when the fuel is sprayed in? isnt the air in the chamber highly compressed and indeed at 300F+ when the fuel is sprayed in? and doesnt the fuel immediately combust upon hitting the hot air charge?
or am i confused with direct injection or something else?
well, im not sure if it was veg or bio that ruined my car, but it was something. i know that it had lots of stinky bio diesel in it when i got it. and that the fuel filter was plugged with black glycerine gunk. you guys may not want to hear this, but my preferred fuel is 2/3's waste motor oil, 1/3 trans fluid & 2stroke oil, and then some coleman fuel to thin it down a bit. my car makes so much more power on that crap than on regular diesel. its amazing. and it smells like it has a horrible set of rings when i run it on that stuff. haha.
and if i were worried about my cars being earth friendly, they most certainly would not be tuned to make smoke screens. LMFAO!
the world is already pretty much toast, global warming is here. no reversing it. so im gonna have fun while i can. and if that means polluting the air, then so be it. everyone else on the planet is guilty also.
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#21
by
CathodeRayTube
on 22 Oct, 2009 10:36
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I actually planned to use WMO also, or have the ability to mix all 4 types of fuel together (WMO, WVO, BD and DD) or run whatever one i want 100%...and i had planned to tune mine for black clouds on-command as well...but i still like to do what i can to help save the earth, until it becomes overly inconveniant, then to hell with it...i have the spiral lightbulbs in the house and we recycle etc...thats enough.. the WVO/WMO is more about saving $ than saving the enviroment, but its still a nice side affect.
Please dont forget about the last question about the piston compressing the air making it hot, id like to figure that out as well.
have any of you actually either destroyed and engine OR run single tank for years with no problems, YOURSELF?
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#22
by
SolarSteve
on 22 Oct, 2009 11:44
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What Maxfax posted about the cold engine is true, but there is more to it. A diesel needs compression to run. When you first fire the motor up, it is cold and so are the rings which will be "contracted". As the engine warms up the rings expand and the cylinder seals up containing most of the combustion gases. The motor oil that you run in a diesel is designed to deal with the unburnt diesel that willblow by the rings until the motor is hot and the rings expand.
Now, running VO in a cold motor will result in VO being blown past the rings until the motor is hot and the rings expand. VO does very nasty thngs when it reacts with certain metals and heat and oxygen. It will polymerize or turn "plastic". Copper, mild steel, pretty much any metal that is not Aluminum or Stainless Steel with react with VO. Then you have the high heat of the motor oil and the constant mixing with air in the crankcase. All of these will cause the VO to polymerize quickly in your crank case and all the oil passageways and in the head, turning your oil into a sludgy goo that will not lubricate your motor properly.
Yes, to your question about the piston being close to the top of the stroke when the fuel is injected, but if the motor is not up to temp all these other things will happen causing an early death.
Its cool what you are trying to do, but this has been tried before and researched. The best way to run VO and keep your motor running is a good 2 tank system.
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#23
by
maxfax
on 23 Oct, 2009 21:29
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A bit off the topic, but I have a question for you Steve, you ever have problems with moisture in your WVO tank??? Not from water in the oil, but moisture being drawn in from the oil cooling and fuel being used and such???
About a year ago I noticed small amount of water in my filter when I was changing it.. I've been monitoring the filter and testing samples from the tank ever since.. Oil going into the tank tests fine, but say a sample after burning a half - three quarters of a tank show some slight signs of water... I've drained and cleaned the tank a few times just to verify there was nothing in there from a bad batch or something like that...
I do have an external fuel fill (behind the liscense plate) thought maybe that was the culprit, but a new non vented cap and a pressure/vacuum test show it's sealed.. The tank vent is routed up into the c-post instead of the exterior of the car as originally planned but of course there still will be some humidity inside the car I suppose...
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#24
by
SolarSteve
on 23 Oct, 2009 21:51
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Do you have a homemade kit or a bought kit (Frybrid, Greaecar, ect.). I hear the Greasecar filler cap is a real piece of crap. Sorry GC guys...
I have noticed condensation on the top inside of my VO fuel cap and have pretty much ignored it. That condensated water, if dripped into the tank is "free" water and if it gets pulled into the fuel line should sink to the bottom of my VO filter, just like on the diesel side. Occasionally, I drain off the VO filter and will probably change it in a few months. I have never tested the VO that I drain from the filter.
I have my tank vented from the top of the tank into a catch bottle that is secured next to my tank. Every 3rd or 4th fill up I dump that into the tank.
On the Frybrid site there are threads about building a "dryer" for your vent. Basically a piece of PVC with desicant in it and this attaches to your vent line so as the tank empties and air is drawn in, the desicant dries it first. I think it is a bit over kill, you still get humid air in the tank when you remove the filler cap to fill the tank.
I drive till the tank is empty and then open the cap to fill it to the top. Most of the time my vent tube submerged in the VO in the catch bottle, so when the tank pulls it pulls the VO back in, kind of like a coolant resevoir. I don't really worry about the little bit of free water than may get in from condensation.
I hope that helps some!
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#25
by
maxfax
on 23 Oct, 2009 22:31
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That is exactly what I wanted to know, THANKS!.. I loosely copied my build from Greasecar and Frybrid (Basically I figured out what I needed, and referred to those systems to make sure I was on track) My vent is on the top of the tank with a hose connected and routed into the rear post.. The fill spout is positioned in such that the tank can only be filled within 1/4" of the top.. So far no spillage.
I originally wanted to vent it to the outside of the car as it would be nice not to smell the stuff all the time.. AS I do now in this car, and on the other.. (No separated trunk in a MK1 hatchback).. But I wanted to be sure there would be no spillage first... I think eventually I'll route the vent into a rocker panel or frame rail or something..
I keep after the filter, and run the tank dry just about every time.. I have a drain on the bottom for "just in case" as well... I figure there is going to be a bit of the same thing going on with the diesel tank anyhow, just a bit more severe with the degree of heating and cooling of the WVO.. I also get condensation on the fill cap..
I'll bet not being able to fill the tank to the very top is probably where my problem is stemming.. It's been a rather moist year and no problems let so I think I'll let well enough alone for now....
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#26
by
CathodeRayTube
on 23 Oct, 2009 22:48
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Its still a little fuzzy to me as to why one would worry about water in the WVO...i know a small amount of free water can be removed/trapped without problems..but how can WVO have any water in it otherwise if A. oil and water dont mix...atleast thats what i was always told and understood..and B. if the oil is heated to 400deg.F+ most of its life in a fryer..and then assuming its put into a sealed container and not rained on in a dumpster etc..
another question is are there any issues mixing any combination of various fuel types? like WVO and WMO? or 1/3 diesel -1/3WMO and 1/3 WVO etc...kerosene even...
another thought. I had planned to install around a 30 gallon fuel tank...i technically have room for a 35 (other space was planned to include onbored pumps/filters..)...or i may end up doing a 25 and a 10 or 5 dual tank setup.
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#27
by
maxfax
on 23 Oct, 2009 23:02
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I've mixed all sorts of nasty stuff with WVO.. Kero, Diesel, and right now I am running WMO/WVO mixed.. The thing with WMO is that is has to be filtered VERY well as there can be metal particles in it.. A centrifuge is ideal for cleaning up WMO, not a bad idea for WVO.. I however haven't gotten around to one of those yet, so for now I am rather choosey on what WMO goes in teh fuel mix.... I also have a junk engine in my daily driver that I'm not real concerned about, so it makes a great guinne pig for this stuff to see what happens..
Oil and water doesn't really mix, but water droplets can be suspended in the stuff.. These are the buggers to get out... Generally heating and settling will allow most of it to boil/settle out.. It's always best to assume there is some water in your WVO than not.. Water +Engine = Not good.. The heating in the fryer will get most of the water out, but you can never be sure if someone may have gotten the bright idea to rinse the fryer into the greast trap when they drain it.. Or a bit of rain water got in it, or just plain old condensation as the stuff cools down..
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#28
by
maxfax
on 23 Oct, 2009 23:10
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Just a little more fired food for thought, you had mentioned about installing a 30 gallon tank.. Remeber that the oil in the tank has to heat up enough for the pump to move it.. Doesn;t have to get hot enough to burn as the heat exchangers can take care of that, but heating 30 gallons of oil on a 30 deg day is gonna take a while... Not to mention it'll be alot of weight when it's full.. Definitley you will want baffles in that, imagine at half a tank 15 gallons of oil sloshing to one side of the tank on a hard turn...
I have a 15 gallon tank in my first Vegwagon.. Definitely can feel that thing slosh on a turn, baffles or a new tank on on the wish list.. It does seem to heat up okay, but I have a huge heat exchanger in there.. Turns out to be much mroe efficient than I originally intended..
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#29
by
vanbcguy
on 25 Oct, 2009 08:27
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With respect to the "why water is bad" thing, you'll find some pics around of diesel pumps that have had watery fuel sit in them for a bit. They separate out any time they're sitting around for a while, so you end up with water in the bottom of your pump, then you end up with rust in the bottom of your pump, then you end up needing a new pump.