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Flywheel mark nowhere to be seen {BE SURE TO READ THIS}
by
Rabbit TD
on 18 Mar, 2009 23:02
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I discovered something yesterday that everyone should be aware of and is probably causing problems for some of you right now. I was taking my N/A pump off the old engine that I just pulled {great little engine} to use on my T/D till I get it rebuilt or re-sealed at least. Just for the hell of it I thought I would see how far the timing might have changed over 3 years now since I set it to 1.0. I already hade the valve cover off to use the bbaffle in the T/D engine and rotated the engine till #1's valver were up, locked the cam in back and the pin dropped right in the pump pulley hole but the crank mark for 0 tdc was no way in sight, about a quarter turn away. I thought WTF this can't have ran like this for 3 years, wouldn't last 3 seconds. I double checked this numerous times and then it hit me. Last Summer I put a clutch in this car [Rebuilt Autozone} and it bolted right up no problems and trans slid right in place fine and I adjusted the cable and all was fine. This one has crank holes that only go on 1 way and the pressure plate's holes for the flywheel are the same so you can't get wrong, only they can'. This pressure plate had to have been assembled with the crank and flywheel holes not being located correctly throwing the timing mark off as it was about 1/4 turn away before I found it. Since I was just changing the clutch and the motor was fine I never noticed anything then but if I had tried to time the engine I would have had a hell of a time figuring it out.
I went ahead and pinned the pump with #1's valves up, locked the cam with the file I use and just made a punch mark on the crank where it was at that point. I set up my pump indicator, rotated backwards, 0'd the gauge when the needle stopped and rotated to the punch mark and it was right on 1.0 where I set it 3 years ago. point is I'll never trust a flywheel mark again, the only way you can tell if it is right is to either have the head off with the trans and flywheel on, stick something in the injector or G/P hole or also make a mark on the crank pulley with a detachable pointer during assembly which luckily I did on the T/D engine while I was doing the piston projection check. With all these parts being rebuilt all over the world you don't know what you are getting today and it's getting worse all the time. I can hear some of you right now saying {the Dumb ****** probably just put the flywheel on wrong} but they only go on I way unless maching or something else was changed and this one bolted up fine when you get the right spot with no problems and trans went on far enough, no tight spots. This is probably causing a lot of people problems especialy a poor new guy trying to do his first clutch change and putting a timing belt on at the same time if he gets one of these f'd up Autozone or other versions that are possibly not assembled right, imagine the mess that would make if the engine wasn't hand rotated first to doublecheck and this is a good example of why it should always be done.
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#1
by
gigaz2
on 19 Mar, 2009 05:48
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G60 flywheels bolt right up but the timing mark is wrong for our engines, you should have checked this when assembling.
as you say, when in doubt, take an injector out and find true TDC, then scribe a new timing mark as you did
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#2
by
arb
on 19 Mar, 2009 06:48
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G60 flywheels bolt right up but the timing mark is wrong for our engines, you should have checked this when assembling.
as you say, when in doubt, take an injector out and find true TDC, then scribe a new timing mark as you did
Its really surprising that German engineers would miss something as simple as the fly wheel bolt pattern not being symmetrical, or at least have a dowel pin to locate TDC marks. Must have been a junior engineer right out of college and no practical mechanics experience. Reminds me of the Chevy a few years back there you had to pull the engine to change the spark plugs.
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#3
by
8v-of-fury
on 19 Mar, 2009 07:06
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How about the Chevy Venture vans a few years ago where you had to remove the airbox and something other held in by like a dozen bolts just to jump the battery.. like what the hell were they thinking? lol
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#4
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 19 Mar, 2009 07:44
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G60 flywheels bolt right up but the timing mark is wrong for our engines, you should have checked this when assembling.
as you say, when in doubt, take an injector out and find true TDC, then scribe a new timing mark as you did
Its really surprising that German engineers would miss something as simple as the fly wheel bolt pattern not being symmetrical, or at least have a dowel pin to locate TDC marks. Must have been a junior engineer right out of college and no practical mechanics experience. Reminds me of the Chevy a few years back there you had to pull the engine to change the spark plugs.
quite off topic, but i thought that was the 70's mach 1 mustangs with big blocks in them that had to have the engines pulled to change plugs? maybe im wrong.. man, i love how often i have to change the spark bolts in my rabbit.
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#5
by
lord_verminaard
on 19 Mar, 2009 08:23
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Its really surprising that German engineers would miss something as simple as the fly wheel bolt pattern not being symmetrical, or at least have a dowel pin to locate TDC marks.
Not surprising at all, really. They did that for a reason, so that if you remove the original flywheel (to change a clutch) you can only install it one way and therefore preserve the timing marks. Doesn't make as much of a difference on the 02A and 02J trannys since the flywheel is on the "correct" side instead of flipped.
But now a days, with people swapping flywheels between all different types of cars, it obviously makes sense the timing marks can get screwed up. The Bentley manuals inform you of this and describe the proper way to re-mark the flywheel for proper timing in the event that you are replacing the flywheel. I had to do this very thing on my '84 scirocco since someone swapped the flywheel with a different car and the timing marks were wrong.
In my opinion, it was a very smart way to key the flywheels. What about the GM symmetrical flywheels that were for externally balanced engines? Now that was a stupid idea and poor engineering.
Brendan
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#6
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 19 Mar, 2009 08:31
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what is the proper way to re mark your flywheel? ive got a 210mm unit on my diesel, and i didnt realise, until i got it all bolted in and running, that the flywheel was from a gas engine. and im pretty sure they have a 6* timing mark and thats it.
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#7
by
lord_verminaard
on 19 Mar, 2009 08:39
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what is the proper way to re mark your flywheel? ive got a 210mm unit on my diesel, and i didnt realise, until i got it all bolted in and running, that the flywheel was from a gas engine. and im pretty sure they have a 6* timing mark and thats it.
The gas engine flywheels had marks all over the place. My JH was I think 12* before TDC, but a mid-year change made the mark something like 3* ATDC and the timing procedure was all different. :roll: You'll have to check the Bentley manual, I can do it when I get home if you don't have one. Easiest way if the flywheel is on the car already is to go ahead like the OP did and find true TDC with the pump/cam/piston and then mark it, but off the top of my head I don't know if the factory diesel flywheel mark is right on TDC or not.
Brendan
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#8
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 19 Mar, 2009 08:44
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im 99% positive that the marks on a diesel are tdc straight up. thats how it seems when you have the head off an engine with known diesel parts that times perfectly. this wheel is off a 92 EFI gasser. i dont have a bently either, but i wish i did.. so basically just take an infector out and find TDC that way? i kinda have a feeling this is why my pump has to be all the way retarded and still not be retarded enough.
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#9
by
arb
on 19 Mar, 2009 09:43
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im 99% positive that the marks on a diesel are tdc straight up. thats how it seems when you have the head off an engine with known diesel parts that times perfectly. this wheel is off a 92 EFI gasser. i dont have a bently either, but i wish i did.. so basically just take an infector out and find TDC that way? i kinda have a feeling this is why my pump has to be all the way retarded and still not be retarded enough.
My current 1.6 has the factory mark at TDC - when I pulled the head, I used my dial indicator to verify this from the #1 piston. My last 2 IDI's also had it at TDC.
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#10
by
madrogers
on 19 Mar, 2009 12:32
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I put a gas flywheel on my 1.6n/a , but 1st with the new belt and tentioner on and diesel flyweel i timed the pump and noted tdc mesurment,them put on gas flywheel and sent pump to same measurment as noted and marked tdc onto the gas flywheel for the future.
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#11
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 19 Mar, 2009 13:35
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see, i didnt think about that when i had the damn thing apart. now im stuck with a useless timing mark and a car that runs OK. it would probably run a hell of a lot better with proper timing marks.
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#12
by
BlueMule
on 19 Mar, 2009 14:28
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According to my Bentley A2 manual, we are supposed to make our own mark on the flywheel. It says this applies to gasoline flywheels butt, I would check it on all. I really don't think this was an Autozone, napa etc problem. VW does all sorts of weird things like this, like what is up with that camshaft sprocket without a key and keyway
:?
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#13
by
Rabbit TD
on 19 Mar, 2009 15:00
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G60 flywheels bolt right up but the timing mark is wrong for our engines, you should have checked this when assembling.
as you say, when in doubt, take an injector out and find true TDC, then scribe a new timing mark as you did
This is just the standard flywheel that was on the old Rabbit that was fine and the timing mark was right, I totaly rebuilt that engie also 3 years ago and used that mark numerous times experimenting with timing positions, removing timing belts ect. and was correct until the flywheel was taken off and an Autozone rebuilt clutch installed by me and it bolted up {only one way] but the pressure plate moved the tiimg mark by not being indexed right during its rebuild. I never noticed till I rechecked pump timing the other day when taking the pump off.
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#14
by
Rabbit TD
on 19 Mar, 2009 15:09
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G60 flywheels bolt right up but the timing mark is wrong for our engines, you should have checked this when assembling.
as you say, when in doubt, take an injector out and find true TDC, then scribe a new timing mark as you did
Its really surprising that German engineers would miss something as simple as the fly wheel bolt pattern not being symmetrical, or at least have a dowel pin to locate TDC marks. Must have been a junior engineer right out of college and no practical mechanics experience. Reminds me of the Chevy a few years back there you had to pull the engine to change the spark plugs.
It's not VW's fault at all, it's some of the cheaper rebuilt parts you can get today at different places that evidently don't know that they have to be assembled keeping the marks lined up. This is my main reason for these posts to let people know especialy new ones to this hobby some of the things that can actualy ruin an engine that was built right and end up thinking they did something wrong themselves. Again always hand rotate first who ever reads this. Luckily all I did at that time was change the clutch and at that time it didn't matter where the mark was, just so it bolted up which it did.