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#15
by
theman53
on 01 Nov, 2008 14:31
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Block heater will help as the more notches are thicker gasket which means lower compression and harder starting. All that said, if you have had it through a winter and it did well with your old 3 notcher it should be at least the same with a new one...I would measure it though. I have a parts store that will let me take back stuff in the box though
I buy all 3 and take what is needed.
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#16
by
Vincent Waldon
on 01 Nov, 2008 14:47
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There are no stupid questions.. :wink:
You won't harm your engine by using a gasket that is thicker than it needs to be... it will just be a bit harder to start in cold weather. How much is "a bit" ?? Hard to say...
My own personal opinion: it's not hard to measure piston protrusion and get the correct gasket, so I always do it.
In this case you are going to spend hours doing the head gasket, and want the engine to run its very best. You're going to need to set the timing, which requires a dial indicator anyways...
I believe you can also measure the piston protrusion with a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges... haven't done it myself but it makes sense.
But again, it's a subtle thing... so don't sweat it. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that the 3-notcher is the correct gasket anyways !!
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#17
by
79rabbit4dr
on 02 Nov, 2008 22:25
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There are no stupid questions.. :wink:
You won't harm your engine by using a gasket that is thicker than it needs to be... it will just be a bit harder to start in cold weather. How much is "a bit" ?? Hard to say...
My own personal opinion: it's not hard to measure piston protrusion and get the correct gasket, so I always do it.
In this case you are going to spend hours doing the head gasket, and want the engine to run its very best. You're going to need to set the timing, which requires a dial indicator anyways...
I believe you can also measure the piston protrusion with a straight edge and a set of feeler gauges... haven't done it myself but it makes sense.
But again, it's a subtle thing... so don't sweat it. And there's a 1 in 3 chance that the 3-notcher is the correct gasket anyways !!
Thanks Vince!
Does the timing HAVE to be reset after a head gasket install? I just timed it when I changed my timing belt/water pump. I have a dial indicator, and all the timing tools (german guy on e-bay style), what else would I need to check protrusion? Is there a link to a "How-To" on that? I didn't see one on your site.
I have a parts store that will let me take back stuff in the box though
I'll have to see if any of my local retailers will let me do that as well. What i'd like to avoid is tearing it down, then waiting a week for parts. I live in a very small town area so options are limited.
I'm guessing this would be a good time to replace glow plugs as well? While i've got easy access to them.
Thanks guys!!!
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#18
by
maxfax
on 02 Nov, 2008 22:47
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Most retailers will accept unopened returns except maybe on special orders.. Definitely a good time to do glow plugs, it don;t get much easier!!! Just make sure you get the Bosch glowplugs... I think the Bosch Duratherms(?) are the good one to get... Haven't found any other brands as of yet that hold up as well..
There are two ways to measure piston projection... The first and probably better way is to use a dial indicator... TO do this you'll need to have the surface of the pistons clean... Turn the crank until the piston is flush with the deck of the block (a straight edge is good for this).. The body of the dial indicator needs to be resting on the block, the pin that moves the gauge on the crown of the piston... Zero the dial indicator then turn the crank untill you get your highest reading.. Although all the cylinders should be uniform, it pays to check all 4..
The other method is with the straight edge and feeler gauge... Once again clean all the piston crowns.. Rest the straight edge on the piston and turn the crank until the piston is at it's highest point... Then using the feeler gauge measure the distance between the straight edge and deck of the block..
Bentley will give the specs for which head gasket you need for your particular piston projection...
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#19
by
saurkraut
on 03 Nov, 2008 06:12
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more notches are thicker gasket which means lower compression and harder starting.
Actually, differences in head gasket thickness has
very little effect on compression ratio.
It all has to do with the 'squish and quench': which are ruled by the distance from the piston crown and the head surface.
If the distance is too great (too many notches), the air won't be crammed into the swirl chamber fast enough to generate enough turbulence to get a good burn. The result is crappy starts, and perhaps poor fuel/air mixing when warm. Which could effect fuel milage.
Also, if the distance between the head and the piston is too great, 'Quench' will be degraded. Quench is the process of the piston dumping heat into the releatively cooler head, when the piston and head in close proximity.
So if you cannot verify that your gasket is the original gasket, you really need to measure.
Bently says to measure piston projection after aligning the pointer in the bell houseing timing hole with the "0" mark on the flywheel.
I use a straight edge across the piston top, and a feeler gauge to measure the gap between the straight edge to the block. I check both 1 and 4 with the pointer on 0, and I have observed the same measurement.
So far, so good.
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#20
by
theman53
on 06 Nov, 2008 03:42
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The old one is a fel pro...great gasket, but that would mean someone has been there before. Watch out They could have thrown on a 3 notch just cause. There are many different head gaskets someone could put on. Looks like a hydraulic head, but I could be wrong, but there is also one for the older mechanical heads. Which there was improvements on the head gasket, but also changes in the engines. Search Franken or frankenmotor lots of guys using a newer gasket on the older blocks and might help you make sense of what I am saying.
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#21
by
jackbombay
on 06 Nov, 2008 20:35
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Does the timing HAVE to be reset after a head gasket install?
You should check it to be sure, but it probably won't need adjusting. If you have the dial gauge its pretty quick, you mentioned that you just did the TB, so I assume you have a dial gauge, or maybe you borrowed one?
Have you called wackerlie to see if they have all 3, or any, of the HGs in stock for your car?
I live in Driggs by the way, I have all the timing tools if you need to borrow them, I'll be out your way on Saturday and you could just mail them back when you're done, if you need them that is.
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#22
by
Smokey Eddy
on 06 Nov, 2008 20:59
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I read all of the first page but not the second.
My Jetta had the three notch put in it and it didn't start in cold at all. I just thought it was a head problem or ring problem but noooo!!!
I measured the protrusion with feeler gauges last week and my block calls for a 1 notch.
I tried to make up with the hard starts with a block heater but it is an uphill battle.
The low comp and poor running when cold on start up and idling just makes things messy. I would imagine cylinder wear would increase as well but i don't have enough experience to say you're going to wear your engine faster by running a three notch.
I'm definitely switching to a 1 notch for the winter.
new stretch bolts, a HG and some solvent will cost you less than 100$ for SURE. It's not a hard job either except for the stupid exhaust clamps. Especially with a friend to help you. don't forget the oil return line off the turbo. take it off at the sump.
You will want to use the search here for putting the exhaust clamps back on there.
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#23
by
gunrtd
on 06 Nov, 2008 21:25
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Ok I just tore into the "little bastard" tonight. Found the head gasket has three holes. What are the measurements to determine if this is the correct gasket (using a straight edge and feeler gauges). Anything else I should be checking in there?
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#24
by
theman53
on 07 Nov, 2008 04:11
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I think this will work let me know what you think.
My idea for measuring piston protrusion is get a flat bar and drill a hole in it for my dial indicator and tap the hole to accept my IP timming gauge that way it will always be set. Then drill 3 holes in the flat stock so that I can bolt the steel down to the block across the bore and straight across the deck to get zero. In between the steel and the block get some old wrist pins or some percision washers to lift it off the deck a little bit, but be exactly the same thicknesses so not to screw up my readings. Then once I get zero I should be able to swing it over the bore and get the readings rather quickly and be able to move the piston up and down to see where it is highest.
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#25
by
79rabbit4dr
on 07 Nov, 2008 12:29
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Have you called wackerlie to see if they have all 3, or any, of the HGs in stock for your car?
Wackerli;
"1 notch is no longer available,
2 notch there is only 1 in US and it's in NJ,
3 notch there are none in the US."
:roll: he kinda sounded like a bonehead though.
going to try local auto shops but i'll probably end up buying from one of our vendors on the forum.
jackbombay, know of any local group stuff? I know a couple air cooled people, and a guy down the street w/ a blue caddy and a orange rabbit, but that's it. We're in Salem/N Rexburg area. Glad to finally see someone from around here.
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#26
by
jackbombay
on 07 Nov, 2008 12:51
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Wackerli;
"1 notch is no longer available,
2 notch there is only 1 in US and it's in NJ,
3 notch there are none in the US."
About par for the course for wackerlie , worth a shot though.
going to try local auto shops but i'll probably end up buying from one of our vendors on the forum.
I usually mail order most everything for the IDIs, and TDIs are to new for the parts store to much of anything for them, so I mail order those parts too.
jackbombay, know of any local group stuff? I know a couple air cooled people, and a guy down the street w/ a blue caddy and a orange rabbit, but that's it. We're in Salem/N Rexburg area. Glad to finally see someone from around here.
A friend here in the valley usually has a GTG in the fall, mostly TDIs, but all are welcome, there are a few nice IDI caddy's in the valley here and some older dashers and rabbits. I have a Quantum TD project car that should run next summer some time *fingers crossed*
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#27
by
79rabbit4dr
on 07 Nov, 2008 12:57
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#28
by
79rabbit4dr
on 07 Nov, 2008 14:54
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What kind of a parts list should I have when doing a HG?
so far,
HG
Stretch bolts
GP's
worth doing injectors at the same time?
what else?
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#29
by
zukgod1
on 07 Nov, 2008 15:08
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What kind of a parts list should I have when doing a HG?
so far,
HG
Stretch bolts
GP's
worth doing injectors at the same time?
what else?
HG
ARP head bolts
Gp's (only if they are bad OR if you want to be safe)
Injector rebuild (absolutely)
Lifter/valve cover gasket (rubber)
Timing belt
Waterpump
Basic fluids
Below is only if you are taking the manifolds etc off the head.
top end gasket set IE; intake, exhaust, 2 water outlet gaskets.
Quote from: "gunrtd"