VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TimpanogosSlim on January 09, 2014, 10:22:46 am
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Getting ready for my 1.6D to 1.6TD project, a range rover enthusiast I know seems to have found me a rebuildable 300td pump for not a huge amount of money. The kind that would have originally had a throttle position sensor for EGR, though the guy with the pump says that the sensor itself is long gone.
I've searched and not found much information - would it be at all reasonable to use a rover pump on a 1.6TD? Perhaps some parts from a VW pump would need to be swapped in during the rebuild?
I've done some amateur watchmaking so delicate work with gears that have to be just so isn't entirely daunting to me.
Is there somewhere i can acquire new seals? He also says he stopped using the pump because he had another and this one seems to have an issue with the fuel cutoff solenoid. Doesn't sound too hard to deal with.
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Seals are definitely available - there is a common Bosch kit that contains everything you will need.
The cam plate in the Rover pump won't really be all that good for an IDI engine - it'll make for a very noisy engine that doesn't do all that well as the ramp on the cam plate is too severe for the lower pressure IDI injectors.
If your goal is to get a good running 1.6TD you'd actually be better off trading the Rover pump with someone who is looking to build an mTDI - I'm sure there's lots of folks on here who have an extra 1.6TD pump or two that would be glad to have the Rover pump (myself included!)
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Seals are definitely available - there is a common Bosch kit that contains everything you will need.
The cam plate in the Rover pump won't really be all that good for an IDI engine - it'll make for a very noisy engine that doesn't do all that well as the ramp on the cam plate is too severe for the lower pressure IDI injectors.
If your goal is to get a good running 1.6TD you'd actually be better off trading the Rover pump with someone who is looking to build an mTDI - I'm sure there's lots of folks on here who have an extra 1.6TD pump or two that would be glad to have the Rover pump (myself included!)
So it would not be a simple conversion, even if i changed the cracking pressure of the injectors?
Acquiring it to trade sounds like a good idea perhaps. I can get it much cheaper than i see pumps sell for. The one i can get is said to have an issue with the fuel cutoff solenoid sticking, but that doesn't sound like something that would be hard to fix.
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The cam plate in the Rover pump won't really be all that good for an IDI engine - it'll make for a very noisy engine that doesn't do all that well as the ramp on the cam plate is too severe for the lower pressure IDI injectors.
False. The camplate I pulled out of my 300TDI rover pump had less lift and duration than a 1.6TD camplate..
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I bought a rover pump for the 1.6 that I am going to play with the advance piston on. From what some pump builders have told me it is well suited for a very built 1.6 engine that is fuel hungry.
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The cam plate in the Rover pump won't really be all that good for an IDI engine - it'll make for a very noisy engine that doesn't do all that well as the ramp on the cam plate is too severe for the lower pressure IDI injectors.
False. The camplate I pulled out of my 300TDI rover pump had less lift and duration than a 1.6TD camplate..
The camplate that came in my Rover pump had a lift almost 1mm *higher* than the stock 1.6 camplate.
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I bought a rover pump for the 1.6 that I am going to play with the advance piston on. From what some pump builders have told me it is well suited for a very built 1.6 engine that is fuel hungry.
That's encouraging to hear. At the moment it is looking like i will be getting an AAZ head to match the PD150 intake manifold and to-be-determined turbo (which will probably come off of a 1.9 TDI, the question is VNT or no?)
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The cam plate in the Rover pump won't really be all that good for an IDI engine - it'll make for a very noisy engine that doesn't do all that well as the ramp on the cam plate is too severe for the lower pressure IDI injectors.
False. The camplate I pulled out of my 300TDI rover pump had less lift and duration than a 1.6TD camplate..
The camplate that came in my Rover pump had a lift almost 1mm *higher* than the stock 1.6 camplate.
So it was close to the AAZ camplate of ~3.20mm of lift? I have measured my rover one at ~2.20mm the same as many 1.6 NA and TD, the 8mm ECO pumps, and the altitude comp pumps.
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It is near 3mm of lift.
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This is an AAZ (left) compared to my Rover (right). Almost exactly 1mm higher lift, and much more intense ramp.
(http://i299.photobucket.com/albums/mm307/J_holubek/Diesel/20121106_201453.jpg) (http://s299.photobucket.com/user/J_holubek/media/Diesel/20121106_201453.jpg.html)
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Thanks for the pic. Yup, if you placed my rover camplate to the left of a 1.6 camplate it would look darn close to that.
To the OP I'd add a couple points. The rover pump has an 11mm plunger as opposed to the 9mm plunger in the stock 1.6TD injection pump which because of r^2*pi, means 33% more fuel. The rise in pressure with that increase in plunger size will make for a very clattery 1.6. Also, the advance curve is wrong. It is nice that the rover has potential for more overall advance, but the spring rate and pre-tension is wrong.
The rover pump could be made to work with a 1.6TD but unless pushing a MASSIVE amount of boost, a 1.6TD injection pump is a better starting point. As mentioned, that rover pump is desirable for an mTDI pump and I'm sure could be traded for a 1.6TD pump easily enough.
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Well, i bought it, because it was a heck of a deal.
And because trading it for a known-good pump more appropriate for a 1.6td appeals to me.
I may let the guy i am getting it from know that if he were to import half a dozen of them he could probably make a killing here.
. :Sent by pneumatic tubes
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Silly question - would it be possible to dial back the output of the rover pump? Governor mod, but the other way?
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Dial back how? The cam plate ramp shape can't be changed without installing a different cam plate, so that part of it is reasonably unchangeable without doing major pump surgery. But you definitely can turn the max fuel screw down and reduce the HP of the engine super easily if that's what you are asking.
Modifications to the governor will control the usable RPM range of the pump.
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Dial back how? The cam plate ramp shape can't be changed without installing a different cam plate, so that part of it is reasonably unchangeable without doing major pump surgery. But you definitely can turn the max fuel screw down and reduce the HP of the engine super easily if that's what you are asking.
Modifications to the governor will control the usable RPM range of the pump.
ok, so, lets make sure i learned something useful.
I know that the size of the plunger ultimately determines how much fuel is pushed per pulse.
Relative to the cam plate, which determines the waveform of the output including the length of the plunger's throw.
You're saying that the governor's action is nonlinear and mostly (entirely?) active in the upper RPM range. Right?
At this point I'm sure i don't understand the scope of control given by the max fuel screw - are you saying that reducing max fuel would reduce the output at high RPM but it would still dump fuel like crazy at low RPM?
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OK you are close!
The governor is purely RPM dependant. It allows the control lever in the pump to move to the full fuel position and then decreases fuel once RPMs pass the max RPM range for that particular governor assembly. There's an idle spring in the governor which provides idle speed regulation and there's an intermediate spring that helps the engine be controllable at part throttle.
In contrast the max fuel screw adjusts the maximum amount of fuel the pump will provide throughout the RPM range. Any time you floor the pedal below the max RPM speed of the governor the pump puts out max fuel more or less. Basically the max fuel screw adjusts the maximum stroke of the plunger.
Not sure how familiar you are with these pumps, if this isn't new info then feel free to disregard!
There's a control collar around the plunger. As the plunger is pressed in to the head by the cam plate a spill port on the plunger is uncovered as it slides out of the control collar. As soon as the spill port leaves the collar the injection event stops. The entire governor assembly controls the position of the control collar. The max fuel screw moves the "max fuel" position of the collar so that the injector event lasts longer. The further you screw it in, the longer the maximum duration of any given injection event.
At the max RPM for the pump the force from the spinning flyweights in the governor overcomes the tension in the main governor spring. That causes the control collar to move away from the max fuel position. Likewise letting go of the pedal does the same thing. Put the pedal half way down, the control collar will go to half way through the range allowed by the max fuel screw. The engine will accelerate till it hits max RPM or the load on it equals the amount of fuel being injected.
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...Basically the max fuel screw adjusts the maximum stroke of the plunger.
Well, plunger stroke is constant... the max position of the control collar is adjusted. The spill port on the plunger is covered until the port clears the control collar. Change the collar max position, max fuel delivery changes.
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...Basically the max fuel screw adjusts the maximum stroke of the plunger.
Well, plunger stroke is constant... the max position of the control collar is adjusted. The spill port on the plunger is covered until the port clears the control collar. Change the collar max position, max fuel delivery changes.
Right right. Should have recalled the video better.
Still, it's reducing the total amplitude by clipping, to use a signalling metaphor.
Right?
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Hmmm... not sure that clipping is the best comparison, if amplitude is analogous to pressure.
Pulse-width limit might be a better analogy, since the plunger delivers above break pressure during injection until the point in time the spill port is opened.
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...Basically the max fuel screw adjusts the maximum stroke of the plunger.
Well, plunger stroke is constant... the max position of the control collar is adjusted. The spill port on the plunger is covered until the port clears the control collar. Change the collar max position, max fuel delivery changes.
Yeah "effective stroke" would have been better wording on my part!
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So is the max fuel screw just changing the initial position or maximal / minimal position of the governor?
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The fuel screw shifts the entire relationship between the accelerator and the output of the pump - IE if you turn the screw in to increase max fuel, you need to adjust the idle speed afterwards as it will have increased.
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The fuel screw shifts the entire relationship between the accelerator and the output of the pump - IE if you turn the screw in to increase max fuel, you need to adjust the idle speed afterwards as it will have increased.
Huh. Can you explain the mechanism?
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The internal throttle lever has two pivot points essentially. One is the case where it is held by, and then one within it self. So, moving the throttle lever moves the control collar from (figuratively) C to D but moving the max fuel screw takes that same travel and moves it up or down from D to E or B to C.
Its like trying to explain a different language in a few short sentences.. its not really possible. lol
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The internal throttle lever has two pivot points essentially. One is the case where it is held by, and then one within it self. So, moving the throttle lever moves the control collar from (figuratively) C to D but moving the max fuel screw takes that same travel and moves it up or down from D to E or B to C.
Its like trying to explain a different language in a few short sentences.. its not really possible. lol
The word you're missing is 'fulcrum' I think.
It sounds like this pump on a 1.6td might be able to be turned down far enough that it's only mildly obnoxiously smoky?
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Pivot, Fulcrum.. they mean the same thing.
piv·ot (pvt)
n.
1. A short rod or shaft on which a related part rotates or swings.
2. A person or thing on which something depends or turns; the central or crucial factor.
ful·crum
n. pl. ful·crums or ful·cra (-kr)
1. The point or support on which a lever pivots.
Any VE pump can be de-tuned for fueling with ease. But when there are guys making more horsepower than you will ever imagine on a 1.6 9mm pump.. Why bother? A better matched pump would be a 1.9AAZ pump or 1.9AAZ internals in a 1.6TD pump.
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Pivot, Fulcrum.. they mean the same thing.
piv·ot (pvt)
n.
1. A short rod or shaft on which a related part rotates or swings.
2. A person or thing on which something depends or turns; the central or crucial factor.
ful·crum
n. pl. ful·crums or ful·cra (-kr)
1. The point or support on which a lever pivots.
Any VE pump can be de-tuned for fueling with ease. But when there are guys making more horsepower than you will ever imagine on a 1.6 9mm pump.. Why bother? A better matched pump would be a 1.9AAZ pump or 1.9AAZ internals in a 1.6TD pump.
OK, well, when i get the thing here, we'll see if anyone wants to trade.
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Ohh, you bought it already..... I see I see
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There's two parts to fueling - volume and duration. The Rover pump will put out much more volume at the same duration, or the same volume in much less duration.
More fuel over a short duration makes a faster, more violent combustion event which in turn makes more noise since it causes pressure to build in the engine very quickly. Injecting the same volume of fuel over a longer time causes the combustion event to be more gentle and causes the cylinder pressure to build more slowly.
So yes, you can turn the Rover pump down to a level where the total volume of fuel is appropriate but it still won't run as smoothly or as quietly as a proper 9mm pump would. Basically that is why there are different sizes of pump heads in the first place.
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Ohh, you bought it already..... I see I see
Would you buy a working 300tdi pump on spec from a reputable source for $115 shipped?
I'm wary of sharing what I've learned about stateside diesel rover parts availability until i get shipping confirmation tho. Found an importer who can probably buy them by the crate and a specialty shop.
There's two parts to fueling - volume and duration. The Rover pump will put out much more volume at the same duration, or the same volume in much less duration.
More fuel over a short duration makes a faster, more violent combustion event which in turn makes more noise since it causes pressure to build in the engine very quickly. Injecting the same volume of fuel over a longer time causes the combustion event to be more gentle and causes the cylinder pressure to build more slowly.
So yes, you can turn the Rover pump down to a level where the total volume of fuel is appropriate but it still won't run as smoothly or as quietly as a proper 9mm pump would. Basically that is why there are different sizes of pump heads in the first place.
OK, it seems like i had to ask a lot of questions to learn that, but thanks.
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Would you buy a working 300tdi pump on spec from a reputable source for $115 shipped?
Probably 4-6 of them.. haha
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Would you buy a working 300tdi pump on spec from a reputable source for $115 shipped?
Probably 4-6 of them.. haha
That price is fantastic. There is definitely a market as long as they aren't China clones.
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Would you buy a working 300tdi pump on spec from a reputable source for $115 shipped?
Probably 4-6 of them.. haha
That price is fantastic. There is definitely a market as long as they aren't China clones.
Yeah no. this guy is a rover enthusiast so devoted that he insists on driving a foreign-market diesel version that he can hardly get parts for in this country.
I kinda understand. I have a land cruiser and i hear that toyota's diesel engines are quiet, efficient, and powerful. But people in the USA who want them are buying half-cuts of broken down hdj80 cruisers through canada for in excess of 10 grand. And toyota america cannot source parts for those engines. if it breaks down you better know someone in japan.
I'll probably let him know, after i have it, just how much he could get for those around here.
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Well don't be telling him we'd be willing to pay a ton of money for them! ahjah
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The fuel screw shifts the entire relationship between the accelerator and the output of the pump - IE if you turn the screw in to increase max fuel, you need to adjust the idle speed afterwards as it will have increased.
Huh. Can you explain the mechanism?
Here's a little anim gif experiment.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/kqdmfs65aj2o7dg/IPmodel1.gif)
The red section tilts on the upper pivot and is adjusted by the full-load screw - it moves the lower pivot for the green and yellow sections.
The green section is controlled by the accelerator linkage.
The yellow section is controlled by the governor on the same pivot as the green.
There is a spring between the yellow and green sections.
The control-collar is cutaway to show the spill-port.
(Of course the full load is not adjusted while driving, but its action is shown.)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ybmiNxxzq0s/Ut3WuqBpFFI/AAAAAAAABa8/hNwYP_NtvmE/s800/GovLevers.png)
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The fuel screw shifts the entire relationship between the accelerator and the output of the pump - IE if you turn the screw in to increase max fuel, you need to adjust the idle speed afterwards as it will have increased.
Huh. Can you explain the mechanism?
Here's a little anim gif experiment.
(https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/s/kqdmfs65aj2o7dg/IPmodel1.gif)
The red section tilts on the upper pivot and is adjusted by the full-load screw - it moves the lower pivot for the green and yellow sections.
The green section is controlled by the accelerator linkage.
The yellow section is controlled by the governor on the same pivot as the green.
There is a spring between the yellow and green sections.
The control-collar is supposed to be semi-transparent to show the spill-port. :/
(Of course the full load is not adjusted while driving, but its action is shown.)
(https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-ybmiNxxzq0s/Ut3WuqBpFFI/AAAAAAAABa8/hNwYP_NtvmE/s800/GovLevers.png)
I may take that and make it a sticky or FAQ
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If only the second image were the gif.. it'd be easier to understand.
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Updated the animation.