VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.
Engine Specific Info and Questions => IDI Engine => Topic started by: TonyTDTruck on June 11, 2013, 11:12:01 am
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I was heading out of town fully loaded with camping gear for our first trip in our DoKa, and I began to hear a knocking sound.
First thing I said to my wife was, we ain't going nowhere past this point. My head went down and rested on the steering wheel for about two minutes.
Had it towed home and we got in the OTHER car for a normal camping trip.
I thought it chunked a rod bearing.
Number 4 and 5 main caps cracked in the same place. What could have caused this? I didn't torque the main bolts enough?
The crank was checked at Bearing Services here in Portland and the engine ran fine before I rebuilt it.
Could the main bolts have stretched? I have never seen this before. Any input would be much appreciated.
Do I need to go with race performance caps? Heck it's just an AAZ with a Giles pump. ???
At least I didn't destroy the engine.
Thanks
Tony
(http://i40.tinypic.com/33niwi1.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/2paib.jpg)
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aaz bad for that it seems... those streach bolts from factory too i beleive..
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If they were OEM Torque To Yield (TTY, or "stretch") bolts, that's the most likely culprit.
Any such fasteners are designed for 1 time use. From a metallurgical standpoint, I'm not super happy about their use in general, but they are here to stay.
Steve
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Sadly I've seen this twice before with my own eyes and in both cases the block was completely destroyed.
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0229.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/410-photos/media/IMG_0229.jpg.html)
(http://i1128.photobucket.com/albums/m488/410-photos/IMG_0228.jpg) (http://s1128.photobucket.com/user/410-photos/media/IMG_0228.jpg.html)
Count yourself lucky that you caught it. The problem is you can't just throw main caps from another engine without a lot of machining.
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WOW that's INSANE! Do they make aftermarket bolts that are better? I'm using stronger bolts on the head but I didn't think the crank bolts were necessary.
ARP I believe they were.
I do consider myself lucky after seeing this picture. Thanks 410.
Tony
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Huh, didn't know they were TTY.
ARP studs anyone?
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arp makes hardware i am sure ud probably have to call them tho.
but u have some machining in your future. that really sucks!!!
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By machining you mean I have to line bore the new main caps? I believe you are correct.
It does mean removing all of the components and starting all over. Yea it sucks.
Does anybody know where I can find a TDI crank? Just in case I may need one.
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By machining you mean I have to line bore the new main caps? I believe you are correct.
It does mean removing all of the components and starting all over. Yea it sucks.
Does anybody know where I can find a TDI crank? Just in case I may need one.
yeah thats all i meant... atleast it won't be as expensive has a full rebuild...
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It's kind of interesting that the mains are all breaking at exactly the same spot. I figured that one main bolts broke [on my motor] and caused uneven stress on the main which cracked it at its weakest point but I see your bolts are still intact. ???
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By looking at the bolts I would guess they are factory stretch bolts as they look fully threaded.
If you would measure them let me know if they are 80mm long or 65mm long. I had a theory that the shorter ones were the culprit, but it looks like those are the longer ones.
If I had to guess I would still say the bolt is the issue. Once they loosen a bit or stretch more, then the force of the crank has to go somewhere. I would venture that the spot we see breaking in these is where the force of the crank is coming down and spinning that direction. Guessing though.
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well i just did arp vr6 rods, mains and heads... rods/mains same as 1.9 diesel... in length/thread pitch... so they got the stuff/sizes..
my inital post says that.. read mk3 bently.. has aaz info.. just slipped in with the little tdi info.. they streach..
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It's kind of interesting that the mains are all breaking at exactly the same spot. I figured that one main bolts broke [on my motor] and caused uneven stress on the main which cracked it at its weakest point but I see your bolts are still intact. ???
The bolts didn't break. We were on the freeway and all of a sudden a vibration was felt coming from the back. At first I thought it was a flat. It also sounded and felt like a bad U-Joint or CV joint. I let off the gas and the sound went away. So I gave it gas to keep going and all of a sudden the sound and feel got a lot worse. I figured that one cap broke and then another. Not both at the same time. I pulled over and at idle I could hear a thump thump. I thought it was a rod bearing.
After that it got a ride on a tow truck.
I'm looking for a set of main caps and a TDI crank. I know it's a long shot but I have to start some place.
Any ideas?
Thanks
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I didn't say they broke, I was implying they let loose or stretched a bit more. Guessing is all I am doing. Without knowing exactly how long the bolt was going in and how much it would grow being TTY there is no real way of knowing if they grew a bit or not. I would still love to know which length bolts were installed.
Also, from what I gather the aaz and ahu have the same exact crank, block, and rods. Is your crank hurt or are you thinking that the TDI will be stronger or something?
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The cranks are different between the aaz and ahu. The ahu has the D shaped crank nose and the aaz has the same crank nose as the 1.6. The ahu crank also has a relucter wheel for the crank sensor.
My suggestion would be to get an AHU or 1Z short block and use the AAZ pistons if you want to stick with an idi. The TDI blocks seem to be more robust. I have never seen this failure on an AHU or 1Z. I do feel your pain Tony. Hopefully you can get up and running soon.
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I didn't say they broke, I was implying they let loose or stretched a bit more. Guessing is all I am doing. Without knowing exactly how long the bolt was going in and how much it would grow being TTY there is no real way of knowing if they grew a bit or not. I would still love to know which length bolts were installed.
Also, from what I gather the aaz and ahu have the same exact crank, block, and rods. Is your crank hurt or are you thinking that the TDI will be stronger or something?
That's really sad news, especially as you were off on an adventure - such a nice rig too.
Im no expert but I have to agree with theman53. You said you rebuilt it (I think). Did you install new bolts or use the originals? As TTY or stretch bolts, that generally means one time use. If that were the case, they simply gave in and stretched more (without breaking). The resulting gap allowed the crank journals to smack the cap like a hammer and bingo.
If you know they were new and you torqued them properly, then I have no idea.
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Man, I just noticed how long your main cap bolts are! Obviously mine were the short ones in comparison but I wonder if the bolts had bottomed out in their holes?
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I didn't say they broke, I was implying they let loose or stretched a bit more. Guessing is all I am doing. Without knowing exactly how long the bolt was going in and how much it would grow being TTY there is no real way of knowing if they grew a bit or not. I would still love to know which length bolts were installed.
Also, from what I gather the aaz and ahu have the same exact crank, block, and rods. Is your crank hurt or are you thinking that the TDI will be stronger or something?
I just measured the bolts and they are 80mm long. Not sure if they bottomed out 410.
It's possible that the crank is busted. I'm just trying to stay ahead of the game in case it is. I was told that the crank could have been damaged in the process.
I just got a hold of a guy who has a TDI crank and main caps.
410 Is it true that a TDI crank will work on an AAZ? I had my AAZ crank notched to fit the TDI pulley.
Gizmoman they were new botls. Did I torque them properly? I hope.
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The tdi crank will work in the aaz. It just has a reluctor ring on it. I would be a little nervous putting money into that block though. It might have been a blessing that both my blocks scattered.
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I've no doubt you torqued them properly. ;)
410, Would there be a feasible way he could check the block before scrapping it?
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I've no doubt you torqued them properly. ;)
410, Would there be a feasible way he could check the block before scrapping it?
If it has to get line bored, I'm sure the machinist can make the call. Other than a really good visual check there's not much you can do imo.
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cannot you use 1.6 main caps?? lots of them vs 1.9...
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Yes, They would have to be lined bored as well, but I had a pic of a 1.9 crank in a 1.6 block. I think that means they share the same size journals.
BTW, I wasn't thinking when I posted about the AAZ and AHU crank. I was more meaning the forging and sizes are the same, but yes the AHU would have the D and the ring for the crank sensor.
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Here's the thing about any TTY bolt - once they are properly torqued the first time (generally at the factory), there is no way to "torque" them properly again. When they are installed the first time, they are permanently deformed (lengthened) by stressing them above the yield point of the material. This is by design.
You cannot "yield" them again safely. It's a one-time deal. If you somehow manage to get above the yield point again, but don't break the bolts, then the load on the fastener will not be correct.
If you tighten them again, but don't exceed the yield point, then you will not have enough clamping pressure.
From my view (I'm a metallurgical engineer by day), the only correct solutions are to buy brand-new TTY bolts and torque them per the manufacturer's specification, or install conventional bolts or studs which are not intended to be taken above the yield point.
That's for future reference.
For now, if you manage to save the block, you are indeed lucky. Take the whole thing to a good machine shop, have them check the crank, check the block for cracks, then take a seat to brace yourself for the machining bill for them to fit new main caps, line bore/hone them, install ARP studs, grind the crank if necessary, and get back on the mend.
Steve.
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should he take a seat or find a second job :-*
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should he take a seat or find a second job :-*
I'm actually laying down on the garage floor. After all of this, with a TDI crank, ARP head bolts, ARP crank bolts, all new bearings, new ported cylinder head, Giles pump, complete rebuild. What would this engine be worth?
I'm wondering if it would be a better idea to go with a TDI engine. Call me stupid but what are your thoughts?
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My machinist would only charge about 100.00 to do the line bore. 100-130 he said. No way would I do the swap to tdi if that is all you had with some gaskets and such. Now if it was anywhere close to the cost of a TDI swap then yes I would do it that way.
The way I see it this is a perfect opportunity to get some Billet steel chunks and have them rough milled down then your machinist finish them. Since you are basically starting from scratch and you need these pieces why not upgrade. I would ask Jetmugg what would be the ideal tool steel chunk of billet to make it from, but after you do that it should be bullet proof. Some alloys take vibration better than others. Too hard I know is bad as well as they are brittle. I would guess you would have less than 500.00 in getting it back on the road. Forged would be better but finding a forging close would be the problem there.
From what I have seen in the casting world I would bet that VW had some issues with ductile iron getting a bit close to the 7 minute mark on these main caps. Somewhere around there it turns from ductile to grey and had less vibration resistance and strength...from what my casting guys have told me anyhow.
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What Theman is referring to is ductile iron "fade". The potency of inoculants used in the ductile iron processing decrease with time. It's important to pour ductile iron within a certain amount of time after the iron is inoculated. That time varies based on the quantity of iron, temperature, etc. However, as he referred to, 7 minutes is probably too long.
Billet steel caps would have a very high cool factor. Something like a 4340 alloy, which is fairly common, would offer somewhere in the neighborhood of 4 times the strength of an equivalently sized ductile iron cap.
Anything more exotic than 4340 is probably just spending money that wouldn't be necessary.
The factory main caps are probably more than adequate with the correct fasteners. For an added level of security, a bottom end girdle could be added to spread the load around.
On some engines, it's relatively common to mill the bottom of the main caps flat, then use a bar of something like 4340 to add support to the individual main caps. I'm not saying that it's common to VW diesels, but it's certainly possible.
Steve.
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I like the idea of adding the tool steel to the cap. Around the front and rear main it might be an issue to keep it all stock, but since he needs it all I figure why not. 4340 is fairly attainable and not completely unreasonable to machine, especially if you are talking about 5 caps. That is what I would do. I figured you, Jetmugg, would be better suited to give out a tool steel grade than I as I am just a salesman and dabble in it. You deal with it for real LOL.
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Huh, didn't know they were TTY.
ARP studs anyone?
Raceware makes studs. Im runnin em in my ahu.
I dont know if arp does. I think they said if you use studs you want to check your clearances again to be safe
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Ouch, sorry to hear about your misfortune Tony. I followed your build. Certainly a nice rig. Fortunately, it sounds like you were close to home and able to salvage the weekend- although I'm sure you had "this" on your mind.
You mentioned going TDI. What have you done with your gearing?
Nice job on the carrier bars BTW. I don't need any at the moment but will certainly be contacting you when I do.
Rob
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Go TDI just like that Green Double Cab you parked next to at Pacific Waterlands last year!!!
i posted pics of your truck, and that green one on the forum..
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The VW crank being forged I wouldn't worry about it being bad at all. I would have it checked for straightness and have your pile checked by magnaflux and sonic and if it is good run it. I am using the 1.6 crank out of the precup engine that failed on me as it was 100% perfect. The #3 rod was bent in an S in 2 different ways from the precup being lodged in there too.
Check it and see, but I would be very surprised if it was damaged.
I have the 1.6 caps from the precup failed engine. You would only need 2 caps...I can get away with 3 as I only use that engine for mock up or template. If you pile checks out I would send you the 2 caps for 15.00 shipped...sorry I would give them away but shipping is a killer and I need the coin :D
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Ouch, sorry to hear about your misfortune Tony. I followed your build. Certainly a nice rig. Fortunately, it sounds like you were close to home and able to salvage the weekend- although I'm sure you had "this" on your mind.
You mentioned going TDI. What have you done with your gearing?
Nice job on the carrier bars BTW. I don't need any at the moment but will certainly be contacting you when I do.
Rob
Rob, Yea it was a REAL good thing I wasn't out near Burns Oregon. Way out in the middle of no mans land in the Steens Mt. range where we were headed.
The DoKa came with a very low gear R/P 6.17. I went with a 4.86 but kept the gears the same ratio. It turns out that the gearing is really nice.
Let me know when you need carrier bars.
R.O.R-2.0 I'm leaning towards a TDI at the moment. I've lost faith in this motor. After 2-1/2 years of work and building the perfect motor I cant go 15 miles without it crapping out on us. This is the first time this has ever happened to me. I've built lots of motors like this starting with the Audi Fox 1.6, 1.7, 1.8 and 2.0 motors. Erics Green DoKa has a nice TDI in it. I will have to contact him soon about some input on building one. There is a guy in Canada that has one for sale with the wiring harness.
hillfolk'r, I found this place here in Oregon that has them. If I'm correct about the engine type.
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13_61_251&products_id=457
theman53 , Thanks for the offer. I'm in the middle of getting a set. if it falls through I'll let you know. I'm going to have a machine shop look at everything. Block, crank and line bore the thing.
I can't afford to have this happen again.
Here are some pictures of my truck after my canoe rack I built.
(http://i42.tinypic.com/2wbsttv.jpg)
(http://i42.tinypic.com/dexk07.jpg)
(http://i41.tinypic.com/33oiq88.jpg)
(http://i43.tinypic.com/vxke3m.jpg)
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Bummed to hear this, Tony. Hopefully the block didn't take a hit. Sounds like you got it shut down quickly.
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have you considered getting a Mechanical pump built (or building one yourself, lots of good write-ups on here) for a TDI engine, then dropping that in there?
alot less hassle going from mechanical to mechanical, rather than swap in ALL the electronics as well...
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Man that is one sweet truck!
I've been nearly a year on my build and read every post here daily (gotta get a life ;D).
Obviously there's more problems posted than successes so the engine is hopefully more robust than it may seem.
Having said that though, for what I have in this build, I'd rather be pouring money into a TDI but for me, there's no turning back.
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I used to see a green one with TDI badge around Santa Barbara. So cool
Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk 2
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Bummed to hear this, Tony. Hopefully the block didn't take a hit. Sounds like you got it shut down quickly.
Yea good thing I wasn't going too fast. I pulled over quickly and that saved the engine I believe. I'll know more in a couple of weeks when I have the components checked out. I'm in the process of removing the engine and next week I'll take it to a machine shop.
R.O.R-2.0 I've considered a MTDI but if I'm getting a whole engine, I might as well just use the whole thing. Chances are that I will repair this one with ARP bolts, new crank and rod bearings and use it for a while until I have the TDI ready to go. Or I just might go ahead and install the TDI this summer and sell the AAZ. Not sure yet what I'm going to do. The other big factor with the TDI swap is the exhaust and intercooler tubes. More custom pipe building. >:(
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If you go with a 1Z, AHU or AFN (1st gen TDI) then the strength of the block is the same. You'd have to go with an ALH to get a stronger bottom end and with that, you'd have to redo all your mounting. You'd basically be at square one with the conversion.
Unless you are into the data-logging features of the electronics, they aren't a benefit over a properly built mTDI.
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The other big factor with the TDI swap is the exhaust and intercooler tubes. More custom pipe building. >:(
Technically your intercooler set up and exhaust should mount up to the AHU/1Z/AFN engine - that is if you'd go that route over the ALH.
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CdnVWJunkie , I thought the K14 and K03 were different animals. If this is true, it would get rid of a lot of pressure.
I'm still a novice when it comes to turbos. The only one I've worked with has been the K14. Witch seems to leak on occasion.
Anybody have pictures of the AHU turbo in place? Mentally I'm preparing to re-due some plumbing. :(
Here are pictures of the K14 I took this morning as I begin the removal of the whole @#@%^&& thing.
(http://i41.tinypic.com/30adxmh.jpg)
(http://i40.tinypic.com/4hb3th.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/22ib2w.jpg)
(http://i39.tinypic.com/o8uy5k.jpg)
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Tony, you can use your manifolds and turbo on an AU or 1Z. I actually prefer the K14 by a fair margin over the K03. Slightly more lag, but much better top end. In other words, if going with an AHU or 1Z, DON'T use the K03 that came with them.
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Tony, you can use your manifolds and turbo on an AU or 1Z. I actually prefer the K14 by a fair margin over the K03. Slightly more lag, but much better top end. In other words, if going with an AHU or 1Z, DON'T use the K03 that came with them.
AHHH, I've never been good with puzzles because they are so predictable, but in this case it helps to know what can be swapped from one engine to another. The K14 does have a lag I don't like but when it takes off it moves really well. How about the extra torque the AHU has? Will this help a bit on take off? Fully loaded in an incline, I have to use granny gear to get going sometimes. It works but it makes for quick shifting at take off. I guess I should be lucky I have a granny gear.
And what is the difference between AHU and 1Z?
Thanks
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The TDI will have better low-end torque than the AAZ. The 1Z was a little earlier than the AHU and came in the early Passats. I have heard they had weaker pistons. They are very much the same, tho.
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Sorry I wasn't clear Tony. I read you post and knew you had the K14 and I didn't realize you didn't know it'd bolt straight up to an early TDI. Great upgrade as Andrew pointed out.
If you're pulling your engine apart anyhow and your bottom checks out, you'd be looking at TDI pistons, TDI cylinder head (complete) and one of Andrews mTDI pumps and you're back in business. Use your turbo and intercooler set up. Use all the 50 degree T3 specific stuff again. Use your intake. You have to pull it all apart anyhow. Sell your IDI pistons and IDI Giles pump and you're well on your way to your TDI goal. Now mind you, gearing.... hmmm. Not sure what your goals are there. 4.86 w/ stock gears. I guess it all depends on what your intended goals and usage are with the rig.
Rob
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Now mind you, gearing.... hmmm. Not sure what your goals are there. 4.86 w/ stock gears. I guess it all depends on what your intended goals and usage are with the rig.
Rob
Hey Rob no problem. In the last ten minutes I've learned I can use a lot of the things I have. This is really good news on top of the bad news I have at the moment.
The intercooler setup and exhaust is very expensive. The Turbo has also been rebuilt.
The DoKa I have came with very low gearing. This was a true working truck that was capable of moving a crew of 5 and fully loaded with a 1.6TD.
The Diff was a 6.17 and the gears are low to start with. All I did was bump up the Diff and kept the gears the same. It turned out to be a good conbo.
Most of the driving we do is on the freeway for about 3 plus hours and then explore fire roads in the middle of Oregon looking for lakes and campgrounds.
6.17 Diff
3.78 1st gear
2.06 2nd gear
1.23 3rd gear
.85 4th gear
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4.86 R+P w/ 0.85 4th sure is still quite short for highway w/ a TDI.
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It is a little low still but in this neighborhood we have lots of speed bumps. To get to Eastern Oregon you need to go over several passes. Very few flat roads around here.
My Hood, Jefferson, Batch-lore, about 41 mountain ranges. It does get flatter the farther east you go. Then you hit the Steens. Fully loaded you really feel the drag.
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Gearing is a subjective topic. There is no perfect selection of custom gearing. It's all based on how the end user will utilize their rig. One thing about the TDIs is they're not quite as rev-happy as IDIs. But if you're content with the way it's set up now then there may be no reason to change it.
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4.86 R+P w/ 0.85 4th sure is still quite short for highway w/ a TDI.
Here is another thing I didn't know. What do you guys recommend for this setup. I don't believe it will be as heavy as a Westfalia but it's heavy in some cases hauling a canoe, two people and a dog along with everything else for camping in the hills.
Gearing is expensive. I can do this in the future if I need to.
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Gearing is expensive. I can do this in the future if I need to.
I agree. Try it out. It's your truck and you use it your way.
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I would reiterate a few points.
The AAZ and the 1Z/AHU are basically the same block. The TDI rods are stronger, but the crank/mains and block are the same strength.
All else equal, the AAZ will produce the same power as the 1Z/AHU. The lower rpm torque is less, but the AAZ will rev higher to make up for it. The fuel consumption is worse on the AAZ, but the cost of gearing changes is not insignificant and likely desired or necessary with the 1Z/AHU.
The AAZ has the pre-chamber issue.
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I would reiterate a few points.
The AAZ and the 1Z/AHU are basically the same block. The TDI rods are stronger, but the crank/mains and block are the same strength.
All else equal, the AAZ will produce the same power as the 1Z/AHU. The lower rpm torque is less, but the AAZ will rev higher to make up for it. The fuel consumption is worse on the AAZ, but the cost of gearing changes is not insignificant and likely desired or necessary with the 1Z/AHU.
The AAZ has the pre-chamber issue.
More good information. One of the problems I'm having with the AAZ is at takeoff. Once the turbo kicks in it has lots of power. The lower rpm torque will help to compensate for that I hope. Regarding the rpm range. Where does the AAZ and AHU redline? I haven't installed a tacho yet. When I did the diff change, I had the opportunity to bump up the gears but decided to wait and try the stock gears. It turned out fine with the AAZ. I used to have a calculator to figure out the MPH with the tires and gearing.
What I do remember is the speed at 3,000 rpm. I calculated from 51.7 MPH 6.17 gearing at 3,000 rpm to, 66 mph gearing 4.86. Without a tacho, I wasn't able to confirm this.
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For those on a budget, you could change tire heights. If room allows or it doesn't look too dorky, that is.
I did have 195-75-14 truck tires on my old truck. But that will require a little clearancing
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Tony,
Here's a link you might find helpful. There's some good info here including a nice tire size calculator.
http://members.shaw.ca/vwdiesel/ (http://members.shaw.ca/vwdiesel/)
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hillfolk'r , I just bought a new set of BF Goodrich 225-75R16. They sit 29" from the garage floor to the top of the tire.
This truck can take 30.5" tires but I thought it was a bit much.
Gizmoman , I couldn't figure out that calculator if my life depended on it. I had training on a slide ruler back in 1973. That should tell you something. :P
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http://www.rimsntires.com/specs.jsp
Is that slide-ruley enough for you?
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http://www.scirocco.org/gears/
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http://www.scirocco.org/gears/
Thanks 745 turbogreasel , great calculator.
theman53, this one works great. At 65mph according to the calculator, I'm revving 3081rpm. Would this be a safe rpm for the TDI?
I'm not sure where the redline is for either of these engines.
Tony
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I'm pretty sure redline is 4500 for both engines.
If you only drive 65 then your gearing is probably acceptabe given the wright and coefficient of drag. Andrew would know better though.
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TonyTD. on that site of the gears there is a link to Miata and they will show you the differences between wheel and tire combos. Diameter, height etc. Try looking around on that for giggles/
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Your gearing would be fine. I didn't realize you were running tires that large. IMO, no harm will come to a TDI from high revs. You could cruise at 4,000+ all day long, but if you did, unfortunately your fuel economy would be in the toilet and the engine would run a lot hotter. With your tires, tho, if my math is right you're still only turning 3555 at 75. The engine would be more comfortable/efficient at 65 but IMO no damage will result from 75.
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Your gearing would be fine. I didn't realize you were running tires that large. IMO, no harm will come to a TDI from high revs. You could cruise at 4,000+ all day long, but if you did, unfortunately your fuel economy would be in the toilet and the engine would run a lot hotter. With your tires, tho, if my math is right you're still only turning 3555 at 75. The engine would be more comfortable/efficient at 65 but IMO no damage will result from 75.
I should have mentioned Im running a DoKa. This one is a Syncro 16. They come with longer trailing arms and larger wheel wells. These DoKas can fit 30.5" tires. Some day I might do that but it's good to know I don't have to worry too much about it.
I have pulled the engine and soon I will have main caps and a TDI crank to repair this AAZ. I will use ARP studs for the mains this time. This will be done at a machine shop.
I have ARPs studs for the head. Can I re-use these? I hope so because they are not cheap. But then again, neither is removing the head and a broken head bolt.
Thanks libbydisel.
Tony
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Yes, the ARP head studs are unlimited-use. Be sure to use a moly lube similar to what they provided with them originally when installing to get accurate torque readings.
I had mine at 100 ft-lbs, and some have gone up to 125.
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Here are the studs for the mains. OUCH! these are expensive. A lot less than what I'm going through right now though.
I spoke with a machine shop and they told me I might be wasting my time with trying to line bore this block. They are saying that if the bore isn't straight the piston height will be affected. They couldn't guarantee it. Oh crap! Maybe I should get a second opinion. Or get a whole used block assembly. That could be cheaper. :'(
http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_11_5_248&products_id=457
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I got a mild chuckle from the machine shop comments (if it's not straight...). After all, it is their job to make sure that the line boring is done parallel to the deck surface.
Steve.
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Tony, the link you posted is for head studs, not mains.
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Tony, the link you posted is for head studs, not mains.
oops I got it corrected. Thanks libbydiesel.
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If you use the arp part # and go to summit racing they are usually cheaper
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Your gearing would be fine. I didn't realize you were running tires that large. IMO, no harm will come to a TDI from high revs. You could cruise at 4,000+ all day long, but if you did, unfortunately your fuel economy would be in the toilet and the engine would run a lot hotter. With your tires, tho, if my math is right you're still only turning 3555 at 75. The engine would be more comfortable/efficient at 65 but IMO no damage will result from 75.
I should have mentioned Im running a DoKa. This one is a Syncro 16. They come with longer trailing arms and larger wheel wells. These DoKas can fit 30.5" tires. Some day I might do that but it's good to know I don't have to worry too much about it.
I have pulled the engine and soon I will have main caps and a TDI crank to repair this AAZ. I will use ARP studs for the mains this time. This will be done at a machine shop.
I have ARPs studs for the head. Can I re-use these? I hope so because they are not cheap. But then again, neither is removing the head and a broken head bolt.
Thanks libbydisel.
Tony
i may be incorrect, but i believe the 1.6, and the 1.9idi use the same head studs, but the 1.9tdi uses its own head studs..
could be totally wrong tho.. Andrew, or one of the more TDI-friendly users will chime in and correct me if im wrong :P
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Nah, stock VE TDIs have the same head bolts.
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After pulling out all the parts from the block, I saw the rod bearings have this wear pattern. It looks like pre-detonation. Or is it oil starvation? I've seen oil starvation as grooves or pealing of the bearing surface.
Again never seen this in any engine overhaul I've done. This is only after 600 miles of running.
Any body seen this before?
(http://i42.tinypic.com/291jlnb.jpg)
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That doesn't look like my AAZ rod cap or main rod halves. That looks like the bottom cap half as I can't see a rod going through your hand and my AAZ the caps were not threaded. Mine had a locator pin. Also I haven't seen anything like that. It almost looks like it had too much clearance and was pounding the bearing surface. Just a guess, but that is what it kind of looks like.
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http://techtonicstuning.com/main/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=2_13_61_251&products_id=464
what you need is 2 others.. 15$ more for 4 extra studs/nuts... makes a 4th set cheap.. if you doing lots of rebuilds may be worth it s you can price by the nut/stud/washer vs over priced kits..
when i see crap like that makes me wanna price other kits in sizes i seek for better deals... they are also selling new rod bolts for a vr6 that are idenitical to tdi strech bolts... but can be reused... i put them in this vr6t project..
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http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-204-5403
Makes it even cheaper. Like I said, Summit usually sells arp stuff about the best of anyone.
But then there is always EBAY
http://www.ebay.com/itm/ARP-MAIN-STUDS-VW-RABBIT-GOLF-JETTA-1-8L-2-0L-204-5402-/300625447233?pt=Race_Car_Parts&hash=item45feac4941&vxp=mtr
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After pulling out all the parts from the block, I saw the rod bearings have this wear pattern. It looks like pre-detonation. Or is it oil starvation? I've seen oil starvation as grooves or pealing of the bearing surface.
Again never seen this in any engine overhaul I've done. This is only after 600 miles of running.
Any body seen this before?
(http://i42.tinypic.com/291jlnb.jpg)
It almost looks etched. Can you feel the unusual pattern with your finger Tony?
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It almost looks etched. Can you feel the unusual pattern with your finger Tony?
[/quote]
Yes it feels rough on the fingernail. All 4 are just like that. Tiny cracks like it was pounding them to death.
theman53, this the rod end I'm holding in my hand.
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How much ether did it take to get it started the first time?
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That's just strange. You'd never guess looking at those you have so little miles on them. What did you put on the bearing upon assembly? I wonder if you had some strange oil on your hands that etched those bearings? Did you plasti-gauge them after install?
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Were you sure that you were getting oil to these bearings? It looks like they were running dry, just taking a pounding from the crank! I ask the same thing as Cdn above, what assembly lube were you using?
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Did you put some sealant on the squirters. I think Theman mentioned somewhere that no sealant under them can = low oil pressure.
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That's just strange. You'd never guess looking at those you have so little miles on them. What did you put on the bearing upon assembly? I wonder if you had some strange oil on your hands that etched those bearings? Did you plasti-gauge them after install?
I actually run the auxiliary shaft that runs the oil pump with an electric drill to prime the engine with motor oil.
That way I'm sure the pump is ready to go. Especially when it's a new pump. As soon as the starter goes oil is being pumped.
I noticed that when the main bearing caps went at 65mph, the oil pressure light came on. That told me that the crank was not contacting the bearings allowing the oil pressure to drop.
I didn't drive it for very long though. When the bearing caps went, the vibration from the engine made me let off the gas and move to the shoulder.
It could be lack of oil for a few seconds. Not sure though.
I got a hold of everything I need to take the block to a machine shop for inspection and repairs if needed. I also got a hold of a TDI crank that will take place of the AAZ crank. The TDI crank may need to be turned. Non the less, it will be done right.
Gizmoman , I have never heard of sealant for the squirters. I didn't know they could leak.
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I think the squirters thing is in the event they actually fall out (perhaps due to lack of sealant or lock-tite) the oil will hose out of the large bore hole and reduce the feed to the bearings.
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I didn't experience it personally but no. The oil was leaking by a guys oil squirters as he didn't put the anaerobic sealer recommended by vw on them. You could put hylomar or if you never wanted to get them out a bearing and sleeve retainer compound. Vince Waldon was the guy that asked the other guy on here having problems if he used sealant. The guy said no, tore his engine down, used sealant, put it together and all the sudden had oil pressure. I think it is a rarity, as the total of all 4 oil squirters should leak less than 1 main bearing, but vw put sealant on them for a reason. I bet it was a just in case the tolerances of both parts were way off and caused low oil pressure.
FWIW, I don't think in 1 mile with no oil those bearings would look like that. My friend at an import shop ran one for 15 minutes without oil trying to blow up an 8v for a customer. The rings were toast after but it wouldn't blow up. I am not saying it is impossible, but it just seems unlikely. Also, what is wrong with your crank that you are going to a TDI one? I would have taken the aaz crank for inspection and cut a D sprocket into it.
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That etched look kinda looks like fatigue stress or glycol poisining.
More like fatigue though that must have occurred as everything started moving around before it really came apart
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http://www.ngpracing.com/newstore/eurospec-sport-billet-main-bearing-caps-all-vw-audi-4-cylinder-5-piece-kit.html
solution^
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http://www.ngpracing.com/newstore/eurospec-sport-billet-main-bearing-caps-all-vw-audi-4-cylinder-5-piece-kit.html
solution^
Yea this is a good solution. I got a hold of an original set. I believe that the original ones with ARP studs will work. If I was doing a race engine I would probably consider these billet caps. But then, what the hell do I know about crank forces and stretch bolts. ::)
I have the block and parts at a machine shop now. I won't know till next week if this block can be saved without spending a whole lot of money.
This engine has, gotten a whole lot of love though.
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Any updates, Tony?
(http://www.reactiongifs.com/wp-content/gallery/popcorn-gifs/20k2gwx.gif)
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Yea sorry about the delay. I've been pretty disgusted with the machine shops around here. I'm being told that they can't guarantee the top of piston after line boring the block. So even after trying I would have to pay around $280. I think it's better to find a short block and start over. One of the problems I'm having is, no answers about what caused the main caps to break, and then the bearings look like they ran out of oil. Both of the machine shops couldn't figure out what happened. After all of that, I would need new bearings, head gasket, piston rings......
I'm considering selling my new cylinder head with only 600 miles, and the Giles pump.
The block with TDI crank and a set of main caps is going as well. In the mean time I have gotten a hold of a TDI AHU motor I'm getting ready to install in my DoKa.
Back to square 1 with getting an engine back in my truck.
s**t on a stick.
>:(
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Line boring the crank? I hope they mean the main caps. By not guaranteeing the top of the piston what do they mean? They should be able to at least give a tolerance, if not they shouldn't be touching any of your stuff. It is sometimes hard to find a guy that will be as particular as you want/need to machine your stuff. Good deal on finding a TDI.
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Tony.
Thanks for the update. Your'e probably better off going with the TDI anyhow - that DOKA is certainly worth it.
I found this locally http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/ptd/3931092090.html (http://losangeles.craigslist.org/sfv/ptd/3931092090.html) but shipping could be spendy.
Sad you can't find a good shop though. What sort of guarantee were you asking for?
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Thanks theman53. Yes the block and caps. I think what they are trying to say is, they can't guarantee that the top of piston will be within spec.
I'm not a machinist so I can't disagree with them. One shop just didn't seem to be interested because he felt it would cost too much. The other guy went on about having to mill the connecting rod and rod cap to compensate for any offset that might put the top of piston out of spec.
As you can see, frustration has set in. There is one more shop here called Bearing Services that I will try in a few days. I got some input telling me these guys know what can or can't be done.
Thanks for the link Gizmoman. This looks like a good deal. If he can't stat the engine though that's something to worry about. He would have to pull the wiring harness and ECU to make it happen. That can cost a bit as well. The best thing to do in a case like this, is to buy the whole car.
The TDI I got a hold of came from Canada. I also got a hold of the wiring harness.
Another thing to consider when buying a TDI is the year of the engine. The AHU block will fit my DoKa project better than a ALH for example. I believe the ALH started in 2000.
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ALH started in 99.5.
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ALH started in 98 in the NB didn't it?
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Yes, I believe so. The new beetle never had the AHU or 1Z. I tend to block the NB out of my memory, tho.
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Yes, I believe so. The new beetle never had the AHU or 1Z. I tend to block the NB out of my memory, tho.
dont we all!
i once went to look at a nb tdi that had a bad turbo and was for sale cheap. i took a look at how much of a pita it would be to change the turbo, and do maintenance on it down the road, then considered the condition of the rest of the car and how gay i would look in it and passed on it haha.
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Update:
I finally decided to part out the AAZ engine. After calculating the cost to line bore and adding various other parts I will need, it doesn't look like I'm rebuilding this engine.
These are the items I'll be selling.
This engine had 600 miles on it.
Giles pump $670 plus shipping and paypal fees. $16.85 to ship to US.
New cylinder head. German. $500 with pulley. Injectors at an extra cost.
Fuel injectors. Make offer.
New Fuel lines from pump to injectors. $75
TDI crank. $75
AAZ crank $50
Engine block with pistons and used crank caps is sale pending.
Pistons and rods were checked and new piston rings.
Components that I will use on the TDI.
Intake and exhaust manifold.
K14 turbo.
Also:
From my 1998 TDI purchase I have:
Down pipe with CAT for a 1998 TDI and varoius other parts.
I will post up pictures soon.
Thanks
Tony