What does Giles do that I can't?

[Tintin]

I see it like this:
A fresh pump costs $700, and anytime you can get 30-50% more power for $250, tats a deal.

Voila!! the majority of the diesel shop have this price, the diesel tool equipment is very expensive, and it is the price to be paid, Example:I am an owner of general mechanics auto, and I gain my bread like that, what justifies that I charge 120$ to change front pad brakes on your car? if you change your brakes yourself on your car, that will take half an hour and will cost 30$.

In other hand, for a pump DIY'er, look and play inside a VE pump it is not a divine mystery and it's easy with some experiment, the hard section is to adjust the pump timing curve without bench test.

My estimated for a pump rebuilt:
 60$ for a complete seal Kit.
 2 hours @ ??$ to clean the pump and rebuilt it.
 some $$ for extra parts, like better came plate or bigger head rotor (**one or the other, the result is the same**)
 1 or 2 hour bench test @ ??$ (**is necessary to take into account that sometimes is necessary to open the pump to change or modify a parts**)

It's my point of view..!!    :wink:

[lord_verminaard]

I can see both ends of the argument too.  I mean, like Tintin said, you can change your brake pads yourself and save some cash.  Likewise, if you have the knowledge, you could build your engine yourself or pay someone else to do it.  Sure, there might be some tricks to engine building that you do not know but how much is that knowledge worth?  Same goes for injection pumps.  I don't know squat about VE pumps, so I'll let someone else do it, either Giles or Tintin.  I've called around some diesel shops around here and their prices are pretty much in-line with what others on here are charging.  I'd love to buy some pumps and play around with them but it's hard to even find a DI VE-pump core for less than $300.  I just do not have that kind of money to "play" with right now and I'd rather put that toward a good pump that I can use and that I know will work.

Brendan

[DVST8R]

I'm sorry if I came across like don't touch the pump you can't possibly modify it. Of course you can, by all means pull it apart, play with it. Yes there are some things that are difficult to get back together, but you will learn a lot, I know I have been down that road. When I first started coming around here (back in the old Host board days, and mailing list before that) we all had to modify our own pumps.

I have turned up a stock 1.6 IP pretty much as far as it can go, modified what ever I could, and turned it up again. (Fuel pins, star wheel, advance shims and springs, gov mod, pressure mods, anroid mods, ect...) and At the end of the day it was no where CLOSE to the pump that Giles built. I went from having a car with a 6puck clutch that would chirp the tires on dry in 2nd gear on a hard shift, to one that would break them loose and spin hard, just by mashing the throttle, it got better economy, it was more drivable off boost, it was a better pump. All for ~$1000 hell of a deal in my opinion. My last modified P7100 inline pump for my cummins cost nearly $6000...

[2383 GTD]

I thought that each of the pumps was bench tested.  They are not.  Giles even wrote as such.  That was quite a shock to me, as I've bench tested many pumps for myself and for customers.

Within this thread, each post exists a division of sides, and largely those who own a shop, seem to side with *secrets*, and those that do not are more for *open source* idea sharing.  This is quite normal.  Of course, there are variations, but opinions should be taken with a grain of salt.

If you know how, tuning these pumps is no magic, and unlike building maps for gasoline cars which can be very power unit and system specific, most of us already know, diesels are far more forgiving.

As far as timing curves are concerned, again, there is no magic, only knowledge gained through experience.

[flapjack]

Theres only one way to settle this.
I propose a duel.
not with pistols but with injection pumps
Giles vs the haters.

[lyeinyoureye]

That sounds fun. But we have to determine what the competition is based on. Peak power, area under the curve, BSFC, emissions, cost, etc...

[foxracer1]

I don't think any one is a "hater" by any means.

The reason I don't have a giles pump is the same reason i don't have 3" DP or a PP intake mani. I'm driving a VW diesel because i'm cheap, poor, and crazy. And i love diesels. But i have this sickness where i must modify any and everything possible. It started with lawnmowers an go-peds then cars trucks and dirt bikes.

It's hard to put alot of money ($1000 is alot to me no matter what it buys me) in to an 1984 VW rabbit.

Now this is not saying i'll never own a giles pump. It's just not right now.

How many of you would still buy a giles pump if he told you that all he does is remove one bolt and replace it with a shorter one and take a shim out of the timming piston?

I'm sure most of you still would because you would get a product back that is known to be what it is said to be. Even if he told us, we will never have his experience.

I imagine after the 100th pump he no longer needs to set them up on a test bench. He remebers every motion with his eyes closed.

[subsonic]

Head on head friendly competition is always cool.  I am not talking about my buisness is better than yours, or I beat you and it was cheaper(and blew up later!).  SO ...
head to head on test machines?  On cars at the drags?  On a base engine on a dyno? People still don't have to give up the ancient chinese secret
Of course some one who wants to go up against G. should probably contact him and let them know about this thread. :wink:

[gilligan5000]

I can see it now, Giles is going to ban me from purchase in the future because I started this thread!  Although a little competition would be pretty fun to see.  If only I had a dyno and a weekend of free time . . . any takers

On a side note does Giles like media blast the pumps or something, they seem to come out looking fresh!  Could it just be a simple chemical bath?

[commuter boy]

How many of you would still buy a giles pump if he told you that all he does is remove one bolt and replace it with a shorter one and take a shim out of the timming piston?

Giles does a full rebuild, replaces all the seals and other wearable parts which is the bulk of the charge, and is dead on price with what other Bosch shops charge.  You're asking a non-comparable questions.

If you asked would someone would pay $250 to have him make two or three tiny adjustments inside a finicky hydraulic computer like a VE pump where a few bits of dirt or one misaligned part could ruin it, put it back together and guarantee it'll work well, then yes, I think more than a few people would happily pay him $250 to do it.

I did, and I've worked on turbine engine fueling systems similar to the VE setup.  It's not magic, it's having the right tools, hand skills, and experience.

I'd play more myself, but I don't have the time or money to do it.  I had a pump with leaking seals from the ULSD change, I need it done right the first time ASAP, and he certainly did a great job.

[foxracer1]

Thats what i was asking. I guess i worded it wrong.

Many guys on here send their pumps to giles just for a factory rebuild no mods even if they live several miles away.

[commuter boy]

His plain vanilla rebuild prices were cheaper than some of the local shops here in BC.  Not a lot, but it covered the shipping charges.

There were a few guys that quoted me cheaper, but on questioning they were just putting in a seal kit, not overhauling the pump.  Buyer beware.

[Dr. Diesel]

I've kinda skimmed through this post quickly.
Giles' latest pump put out 160cc's with a 9mm plunger.
Each and every pump is bench tested before leaving his shop. If someone thought they had read something contrary to this fact, there must have some sort of misunderstanding.
Giles is very busy.
The best way to contact him is by phone.

As before, but even moreso in his new self-owned shop, the pump mod package is definitely proprietary information. It's simple people, this is how he feeds his family. Get over it! If you think you can do it yourself, do it. Nobody is stopping you. It's not as easy as it looks. I have personally seen several pumps, this year alone, that have ended up in his shop to 'undo' the mess that their owners had created. 4/6 of them from this website.

His price is very competative, the best value in the industry in my opinion.

Bottom line, it's your choice. Crap or get off the pot, but don't complain about it on here!

[mvptrukin]

I went to an auto/diesel mechanic school in the '70's where we were given a very brief intro to IPs. This was a time when all diesels had mechanical IP's. It was very hard to get an apprenticeship in an injection shop and for those who did ,it took years before they where entrusted to calibrate IP's and they worked for less $ than other apprentices.The journeymen pump men have always guarded their secrets because it took them years to gain the knowledge, just like a good carb man. We live in a capitalistic society and everone basically prices his or her talents in the marketplace and we are paid accordingly. I have worked on many large and small diesel engines over the years and I would never work on an IP without the proper bench and knowledge. Also IP repair prices really haven't gone up that much but has anyone priced a test bench, shop rent, insurance etc.
Price hotrod mods on the Cummins IP's!

[Tintin]

It have there people who are able to make a good pumps without needing a test bench, here in quebec, I know some pump shop with a very good reputation which are unable to built a TDI with a mechanical pump, even with the assistance of a test bench   :wink: