Need some help - 97 AAZ 1.9 TB tracking issue (update)

[ricosuave]

Hi all,

Well, I just want to get some more insight as to what is going on...

Ive got a 97 Jetta, 1.9 AAZ, 243K

I had the TB done by a ex VW mechanic at 230K - he also replaced the tensioner.  He did not replace the crank pulley, as he said the keyway and groove and pulley were in great shape and all tight.

I recently contacted him to adjust the injector pump timing, and when he took the cover off, we found the tb was rubbing to the passenger side of the car, against the cover.  The belt was still on and tight, but obviously wearing down on that side.

He inspected it all, replaced the TB and the TB toothed pulley (he said one of the teeth was gnashed, like a small rock may have gotten inbetween it), but otherwise could not find a reason as to why the belt may have shifted.

He aligned the belts on the center of the pulleys and all was well.

About 3 weeks later, I can see the belt shift to the same side.  It looks like it is just as the edge and not rubbing, but it has definately shifted over.

Today, I had another look, and it does look like the belt may be rubbing something again - I see a very very slight evidence of the belt edge fiber at 2 very small points on it - although the belt does not appear to have moved any further to the cover side than I observed before.

So, my questions are:
- Does anyone have any good explanations as to why the belt tracked (and seems to be tracking) to that side?  I'm sure it could be several things, but I'm looking for any ideas.

- Is the cause a very expensive fix?  (I can't do this work myself, and my mechanic charges book time)

- Is this something that is WORTH fixing for a car that very likely only worth about $3K, including the ~2K that has been put into it in the last year and 1/2

Basically, the thought of dropping a lot more coin to 'fix' this problem is daunting, and I'm at a point wondering whether or not to cut my losses and move on.

Thanks for any insight, and I can provide more info if needed.

Thanks,
rico

[bert]

I have had a golf 1.6D do this once,it was the fuel pump front bearing,causing the pulley to kick over very slightly and making the belt ride on the edge of the pulleys,or maybe the tensioner stud is slightly bent,i have heard tales of this but never experienced it.
Bert

[ricosuave]

thanks bert

anyone else?

[ricosuave]

hmm, the misalignment one doesnt sound too bad, but the bearing thing - that sounds like it may be expensive

[935racer]

It could be the main dive bearing in the front of the pump, but its more than likely the conical bolt on the rear side of the pump were the outlets are, make sure that thing is torqued and placed correctly, I've seen them come lose or completely fall out a couple times and the TB walks.

[ricosuave]

so, today, the mechanic had another look at it

the belt is definately wearing on the passenger side edge a bit, the 2 top pulleys (injector and ?) are very close in alignment, almost perfect, but the intermediate shaft pulley is in towards the driver side about 1-2mm than it should be.

so, we think we have narrowed it down to a couple of things:
- intermediate shaft pulley (aluminum) is worn
- intermediate shaft pulley thrust bearings are going, hence the play towards the drivers (vacuum pump) side

we were thinking of pulling the intermediate shaft pulley and either machining it to square, replacing with a new one, or, installing one from a 1.6 diesel, which have guides on the edges and allows the belt to sit in the channel of the pulley.  it may also be possible to shim the (shaft, pulley, bearing?) so that it does not move over to the drivers side any more.

does anyone know if the 1.6 diesel intermediate shaft pulley is the same size as the one for the 1.9 aaz?  is it a direct bolt on?  i think this would be my preferred method, followed by machining the existing 1.9 one if it requires it.

thoughts?  i'd like to know what you all think can be done about this possibility

thanks,
rico

[ricosuave]

it sounds similar to this thread...
http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3230&highlight=intermediate

any experiences with these symptoms in a 1.9 as opposed to a 1.6?

R

[QuickTD]

A flat or toothed belt will always track toward the side of the pulley that it contacts first, which is generally toward the tighter side if the pullies are conical or angled. That's why flat belt drives are often crowned, the crown places the tight portion of the drive in the middle, so it will naturally centre the belt. If the belt is tracking toward the outside it is not due to pump bearing wear. If the pump pulley were leaning down the belt would track inward, toward the pump or the tight side. Make sure the pullies are clean, any buildup in the teeth will create an artificial crown and mistrack the belt, look for rubber build up or dirt on the outer edges (passenger side) of the pulleys and look for pulleys that are leaning in a direction that would make the outer edge tighter than the inner edge. I have encountered belts that were wound conical, with tighter strands of cord at one edge. These belts cannot be tracked and must be replaced. Since you're on your second belt this is not likely the problem in your case, but worth mentioning for future reference.

[ricosuave]

^
any idea as to what my problem might be then?

[QuickTD]

^
any idea as to what my problem might be then?

Dirt? misalignment? You're going to have to take a look at it, I can't see it from here...

[ricosuave]

Since you're on your second belt this is not likely the problem in your case, but worth mentioning for future reference

Since you mention what is likely NOT my issue, and the fact that I asked in my first post about what potential things to look for, what kind of things may cause this, I am very surprised at your 'can't see it from here' post.

I'm not 100% sure about my mechanics opinion, which is why I'm asking for the knowledgeable people on this board for theirs.

It's kind of like what our mothers used to say: "If you can't say anything...", seems to apply here.

Not everyone who has one of these engines are experienced or inclined mechanically as well as others here, and in as much as I'm sure that this is a simple thing for someone to look at and instantly recognize, it isn't for me.  And while a second TB job in almost as many weeks may be nothing for you guys who rip these engines apart in your sleep, for someone who was told at one time to "stop throwing money at things, solve the real problem", I tend to be cautious about diagnoses, especially potentially expensive ones.

Maybe I am just having a bad couple of days, but I really feel that your comments in this and my other thread were kind of shallow and out of line, QuickTD, info on the TSB etc aside.  Somehow, I expected more from you.  I'm not saying you have to solve all my problems, but I am posting a legitamate quesiton about a potentially serious and expensive situation, and because you're well respected by most everyone here (myself included), I really wanted to hear what you had to say.

And if I am wrong for thinking that, I will certainly come out and admit it.  Will you?

rico

[QuickTD]

In all seriousness, I really can't see a damn thing from here. You are the only source of information regarding the problem. You don't need to be a mechanic but you do need to be the eyes and ears for those of us thousands of miles away. If you add no new information but continue to ask the same question I'm not sure how I (or anyone else) can be of much help. I can speculate all I want, in fact I believe I may have speculated about as far as is possible in this case. If we know what did or didn't work perhaps we can make further suggestions.

 Since you have bumped this back up, (I guess?) I can assume that you (or your mechanic) have cleaned the pulleys and carefully inspected them for damage and wear and you have read and carried out the suggestions in the TSB e-mailed you and none of this has worked. Did it correct the tracking at all? Beyond the fix suggested in the TSB there is little else in the way of simple adjustments that can be done. For obvious reasons the crank, cam and intermediate shaft cannot be out of alignment. And with the pump pulley angle corrected per the TSB the only other non-fixed item is the tensioner. Has it been replaced? Is it properly installed? The little tang on the back of the automatic adjuster can get out of the notch and cause trouble. Assuming the problem surfaced only after the timing belt change, any parts that were replaced should be carefully scrutinized, the tensioner being one of them.

 

Maybe I am just having a bad couple of days, but I really feel that your comments in this and my other thread were kind of shallow, QuickTD. Somehow, I expected more from you. And if I am wrong for thinking that, I will certainly come out and admit it. Will you?

 Shallow? I dunno... I was going for well intentioned but with a touch of humour, but I did fail english back in high school... I guess the confines of text do not lend themselves to my style of deadpan. I apologize if you were offended. In the future I will make every effort to keep my mouth shut.

[houseofdiesel]

Replace the tensioner stud...if the pump is locked down tight.
My 97 TDI had the same problem, I replaced the belt and tensioner stud in the cyl head, no more problem. The studs do get slightly bent sometimes, no idea why but they are in stock with major VW specialists so the stud is changed frequently.

[ricosuave]

well, it hasn't yet been disassembled a third time.

the first 2 times, the mechanic swore that all of the pulleys connected were clean and in good shape.

the key we are thinking is that the intermediate shaft pulley is in about 2mm to the drivers side, and in comparison to a 1.9 aaz in his garage, the pulley is flush with all of the other pulleys.  thats why we were focusing on that pulley and that angle.

if anyone has any insight about THAT, then I'd love to hear it.

quicktd, thank you for your help, and i'm sorry if i came across all ***y.  finances are a little tight now, and I wasnt expecting this, thats all - and then to have my mechanic not give me an idea as to why this is happening, (especially since the LAST time the belt wandered and tore up the belt) has probably put me on edge a little.

i'm in the process of taking it to a second mechanic for an opinion - if I have to pay for the job once again, i think i'd rather go with someone who will actually address this problem rather than ignore it.

once that person gets in there, i will mention the tsb, and the other things you all said to check for and we can go from there.

thanks again for the help all.

rico

[ricosuave]

ok, so the latest is that the new mechanic thinks that the intermediate shaft pulley was installed backwards.

one side of the pulley has more offset than the other, and he thinks this is why the pulley looks like its out towards the driver side.

can someone who knows this, or has an aaz sitting somewhere with the intermediate shaft pulley exposed, please investigate and tell me how theirs sits?  if the deeper part of the pulley is facing the passenger or facing the driver side.

this was just from a brief inspection last weekend - im booked for an appointment on friday to pull stuff apart.

thanks