Water Injection

[Benjamin]

If the carb was draw-through (which means carb, then turbo, then intercooler) the fuel could condense and pool up in the intercooler

this is a timebomb!

i think greggearhead is very right with his theories

Greetz, Benjamin

[jtanguay]

I wouldn't worry too much about the water pooling in the intercooler (unless you spray with no boost).  The added heat + airflow from boost will definitely help keep the 'moist' air from condensing.

If you are spraying too much into your system, then yes its quite possible that the fluid could pool up into your intercooler and pose some serious problems down the line.  

I wonder if the % alcohol in the blue washer fluid would erode aluminum...  something to think about...

hillfolk' has the right idea about only spraying with boost, and at WOT.  he keeps his setup real simple that way.  Only problem is if the driver screws up and sprays without boost...

For an atomizing jet, why not get one of those lawn sprinkler tips? the ones that have the special misting nozzles.  I think they would do a great job pre-turbo and not really have to worry about damaging pressures.

[BellCityDubber]

um ive been running this basic setup for like 2 maybe almost 3 years now,somethin like that

my ol garrett compressor side looked fine,no erosion or anything

do ya have an old carburetor laying around from anything?even a lawnmower? so you can steal some jets
 i think the orig jet i used was like an .050 hole

did you see my new"jet"?
you could hook it to a psi switch,or wot switch,or a combo of both
but i just have a button taped to the shifter knob
i activate it almost any time i floor it,or my boost is over 5-10 psi
ive held it on as long as ive had my foot to the floor,i dont think ive floored it for more than 20 seconds though(um 14.1-2-3 seconds in 1/4,doing 95+)
i dunno if id want it hooked up to just a wot switch,cause you can wot  and not have boost
i sorta like tha manual button i got
i made the wires loong,so i can untape it from the shifter,and retape it to the steering wheel for the drags,its a pita to hit the button and shift,i learned fast at the drags
you sound like a perfect candidate for my setup(starving student)
mines free if ya got stuff in the garage,or real cheap
a carb jet,some tubing,an a2 washer bottle,and washer fluid+you are there
screw paying 300 bucks,so it"atomizes more finely"
you dont even need a carb jet really,solder a piece of(guage tubing) 1/8 inch copper tube shut+drill a small hole+make it larger until its what you need
actually,i got vw return line hooked to that 1/8 copper,then another piece of rubber,then into my new jet
the new jet"flows the same" as before,because i think the copper tubing is the restriction
mine doubles in value when i fill the washer bottle with blue stuff for a buck
pretty hard for water to get flung to the sides,when its being drawn in anyways
i "tested" the hydrolock capabilities one night,i was doin like 60  in top gear,like 5 psi,,well the engine started missing after like 10 seconds of holding on the button steady,so its pretty safe

even if it isnt  an efficient setup,washer fluid is a dollar,it wont break the bank,so what if you even use 2x as much to get the same power as a "kit"?
i romp it hard,and i do 400 miles each  week just for work alone ,and i use like 2/3 maybe 3/4(severe beating) of a gallon a week
then ive driven 500 miles to ny,and barely used it, its all hiway
i heard somewhere that an "average" is like 1 gallon every 1000 miles i dunno

hope this post isnt too run on,and is readable,lol

Yea, I'm a student, and I would love to do something like this on a budget.
I've seen your new jet. it's rather impressive... aircraft parts on a car are always a good idea  

I should have enough stuff lying around at my brother in law's shop.. perhaps a jet from an old carb or lawnmower or SOMETHING in the deadstuff pile...

I like the idea of using washerfluid.... lol that's great, and cheap too...

I'l start messing around sometime over the summer, but I really like seeing all the information comming together in this thread....

Jtanguay mentioned something about using a lawn sprinkler jet... what about the jets at a greenhouse? those give good mist... I'm going to start to experiment with misting... just to see what kind of flow I can get.

[greggearhead]

i heard running water injection before an intercooler is bad? supposed to build up in the bottom  or something...does the water injection work good enough to run no intercooler hillfolk'r? or are you also using an intercooler?

Spraying before the intercooler is bad in this respect.  It can very easily pool and puddle and cause problems.  To add to the fact that the small droplets start making big droplets running into each other.  

We have lots of people running water-methanol injection and no intercooler.

[greggearhead]

I wonder if the % alcohol in the blue washer fluid would erode aluminum...  something to think about...

hillfolk' has the right idea about only spraying with boost, and at WOT.  he keeps his setup real simple that way.  Only problem is if the driver screws up and sprays without boost...

For an atomizing jet, why not get one of those lawn sprinkler tips? the ones that have the special misting nozzles.  I think they would do a great job pre-turbo and not really have to worry about damaging pressures.

Most -20 degree F Blue fluid has about 30% methanol.  It will not damage aluminum at all.  I suppose if you had a tank of it and left an aluminum part in there for e few years it might start to show some signs of erosion, except that after a month or so, the methanol would have absorbed more water and been neutralized.  

Even with 50/50 water-methanol there is absolutely zero damage to any aluminum or steel.  It is never in constant contact with any metals, and in such a small quantity vs. the huge amount of air and even diesel it is a non-issue.  

For the simplest kits, a boost switch is a good way to go.  I really, really prefer a progressive injection that matches the needs of the engine at many different loads.  

The garden type misters would be much better than nothing, but you are still going through the turbo, which negates the atomization to a large degree.  If there was no advantage to using a custom designed and manufactured nozzle, we wouldn't do it.  

I am not trying to stop people from making their own systems at all.  The more people that use and understand water-methanol, the better, IMO.  I just want people to realize the benefits and drawbacks of going different ways.

[lyeinyoureye]

2. The combustion of water provides for more power on the power stroke.

How do you figure the energy required to *break up water into H2 and O2, then combust it (reforming it) actually provides any power when it should be zero net energy, or is even present on a large scale? From what I've gathered the increase in power comes from the increase in thermal efficiency, i.e. the water sucks up some of the extra heat from combustion that would otherwise be soaked up by the block (this is also why EGTs drop) and does work by expanding when it transitions from fluid to vapor.

*not that it doesn't happen for any H2O molecules, just that it doesn't happen for the large majority iirc.

[Master ACiD]

heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.

[Mark(The Miser)UK]

heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.

Almost a great Idea... :wink:
But it would be like putting your thumb over the vac pump outlet and blocking it IMO

[rabbid79]

How do you figure the energy required to *break up water into H2 and O2, then combust it (reforming it) actually provides any power when it should be zero net energy, or is even present on a large scale? From what I've gathered the increase in power comes from the increase in thermal efficiency, i.e. the water sucks up some of the extra heat from combustion that would otherwise be soaked up by the block (this is also why EGTs drop) and does work by expanding when it transitions from fluid to vapor.

*not that it doesn't happen for any H2O molecules, just that it doesn't happen for the large majority iirc.

It's not that the water is being broken up into Hydrogen and Oxygen and then recombined to produce energy.  This isn't happening, and you're right, there would be zero net energy even if it was.  It's that vaporous water (steam) has 1600 times the volume of liquid water.  Turning liquid into vapor causes more expansion of gasses to occur, thus more pressure, thus more torque, thus more power.

[Master ACiD]

heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.

Almost a great Idea... :wink:
But it would be like putting your thumb over the vac pump outlet and blocking it IMO

not if you put a blow off valve on the tank set at a certain psi, like 10 or 15lbs. then it would just build up pressuyre untill that point and then vent excess pressure off, so it would keep the brakes functioning properly etc. you know that useless blow off valve on the intake manifold of a 1.6td? well take it fof the manifold and cap the manifold. then put it to some good use. put it on a pressure tank.

[Benjamin]

heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.

This is what i was trying to make, but it tooked me to much time 'n custom works, for just 70usd you can get a 150psi pump.
When i go to the track i can drive every sesion for 45min, i gonna use a 300 or 600cc injector (this is what the factory said to me), this pretty much water i need! so a tank wich is under pressure is not good for an example for me.

Greetz, Benjamin

[Benjamin]

The kit i bought
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8075635867&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

kit:


150psi pump:


i ordered a extra nozle (wich is +15usd), i got a 300cc an 600cc nozle:


you realy better buy a solonoid, this is my checkvalve:


the checkvalve go open activated by boost with this boost sensor


The pump pressure is adjustable, the boost sensor is also adjustable, so you can choose at wich boost you let open the checkvalve.

i can not test this so fast  :cry: my engine is STILL not realy installed, its very much custom works wich cost time, i hope i can get 150hp in august

Greetz, Benjamin

[jtanguay]

The kit i bought
http://cgi.ebay.com/ebaymotors/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&rd=1,1&item=8075635867&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT

kit:


150psi pump:


i ordered a extra nozle (wich is +15usd), i got a 300cc an 600cc nozle:


you realy better buy a solonoid, this is my checkvalve:


the checkvalve go open activated by boost with this boost sensor


The pump pressure is adjustable, the boost sensor is also adjustable, so you can choose at wich boost you let open the checkvalve.

i can not test this so fast  :cry: my engine is STILL not realy installed, its very much custom works wich cost time, i hope i can get 150hp in august

Greetz, Benjamin

thats a pretty affordable kit

[hillfolk'r]

intercooler ir not?
im not running an intercooler
i didnt have one on my old jetta either
i know i know,,ill get around to installing one eventually
that is a ok lookin kit....
oh actually,i looked last night  i used like 1/3 of a gallon this week,kinda light usage.....

[greggearhead]

heres a thought. the vacuum pump essentially wastes air that it pumps from the system at a good pressure. why not hook up the vacuum pump outlet to an air tank and fill it with 75% water. then use the pressure in the tank to mist water into the intake.

That or using the turbo manifold boost pressure itself has been done.  It is a way to get some proportionality in the system, but it is really, really poor atomization.  You get some benefit, but you will not get nearly the benefit you *can* and you will use probably 4 times as much water to do it.  Just an FYI.