Author Topic: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon  (Read 36784 times)

Reply #45September 03, 2014, 08:29:55 am

libbydiesel

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #45 on: September 03, 2014, 08:29:55 am »
Less laggy than a K24 or T3 isn't saying much.  IMO, a K24 or T3 are utterly unbearabably laggy in a vanagon.  A K14 is irritatingly laggy in a Vanagon but has always been my stock wastegated recommendation as the K03 has so little high-end flow.  If it doesn't BOTH spool faster than a K03 AND have better high-end than a K24 it is a BAD CHOICE for a vanagon.  Obviously, the Holset does not do both.  It's nice that it flows better high-end than all the stock choices, but that's all irrelevant to the application.  In looking at Theman's video, you can't see a tach, but from the sound of the engine, that amount of lag in a vanagon would be unbearable for me.  Also, in looking at the pics in that thread, if Gizmoman blows that amount of smoke in Cali it is very likley that he will get cited.  Comparing the experience of a 3,000 lb passenger car is just silly.  A loaded Westy can weigh in fairly easily in excess of 5,000 lbs.  The frontal area of a vanagon is 2 to 3X the size and wind resistance is cod X frontal area.  That makes the passenger car a little more than half the weight, less than half the wind resistance and gives an EXTRA GEAR to play with...   Anyway, I hate repeating myself in a conversation.  I'd like to thank Gizmoman for footing the bill on this expensive failed experiment.  Hopefully it doesn't cost you too much more to get to a point of satisfaction with it.  Good luck with it guys.
« Last Edit: September 03, 2014, 09:07:20 am by libbydiesel »

Reply #46September 03, 2014, 09:48:27 am

sdubfid

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #46 on: September 03, 2014, 09:48:27 am »
I agree with both Libby and alcaid.  First I would do some uphill wide open throttle runs.  Then either reduce fuel or add boost to get your desired max egt.  From there fine tune how the fuel is added.  Some grease on the pin will tell you how far it is travelling.  There are a lot more things that come in to play as well such as gear ratio etc.

Personally I would up it to 25psi.  I feel that lugging an engine will cause more stress than higher boost.  Think about pedalling a bicycle.  Rpms higher=more airflow.






Reply #47September 03, 2014, 05:31:23 pm

theman53

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #47 on: September 03, 2014, 05:31:23 pm »
Less laggy than a K24 or T3 isn't saying much.  IMO, a K24 or T3 are utterly unbearabably laggy in a vanagon.  A K14 is irritatingly laggy in a Vanagon but has always been my stock wastegated recommendation as the K03 has so little high-end flow.  If it doesn't BOTH spool faster than a K03 AND have better high-end than a K24 it is a BAD CHOICE for a vanagon.  Obviously, the Holset does not do both.  It's nice that it flows better high-end than all the stock choices, but that's all irrelevant to the application.  In looking at Theman's video, you can't see a tach, but from the sound of the engine, that amount of lag in a vanagon would be unbearable for me.  Also, in looking at the pics in that thread, if Gizmoman blows that amount of smoke in Cali it is very likley that he will get cited.  Comparing the experience of a 3,000 lb passenger car is just silly.  A loaded Westy can weigh in fairly easily in excess of 5,000 lbs.  The frontal area of a vanagon is 2 to 3X the size and wind resistance is cod X frontal area.  That makes the passenger car a little more than half the weight, less than half the wind resistance and gives an EXTRA GEAR to play with...   Anyway, I hate repeating myself in a conversation.  I'd like to thank Gizmoman for footing the bill on this expensive failed experiment.  Hopefully it doesn't cost you too much more to get to a point of satisfaction with it.  Good luck with it guys.

Never had a vanagon or a k14, but I have driven people that have had a k14 when I had a k24 in the car...they said my k24 spooled faster than the k14 *aaz K14* that they were used to. I don't have a tach and all smoke is gone now that I fixed the boost leaks, and I mean 99% of the smoke. I get more smoke out of the vnt tdi. It is unknown but I would bet that the holset I have on a 1.9l aaz would spool faster than a k14 and have more than enough top end flow. The T3 that I had the 360 thrust bearing spooled faster than a VNT and this holset isn't far behind. Honestly the he221w I have spools faster than the stage 2 Malone .216 nozzle TDI I have. I think the turbo is a good choice if the van trans is up to the power. The EGT I would almost guarantee are not a fault of the turbo sizing. If I had to guess Gizmo is where I was several years ago and just needs to figure out how to tune. He may only want to run x psi, but if the engine requires more to run cooler I would give it the n psi it wants.

Reply #48September 03, 2014, 06:43:27 pm

Gizmoman

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #48 on: September 03, 2014, 06:43:27 pm »
How do you know it was not EGT related, did they have an EGT gauge or not?

The failures I know of were rod bearings wearing out quickly (<30,000 miles), broken main saddles, tossed rods and one case of a broken crankshaft.  I know that EGT gauges were installed on most but am not sure/do not recall if that was the case for all of them.

By the way, Giles responded to my email just now. . .
Quote
sounds like this turbo is too big for you...

Unfortunately I agree with Giles.  IMO, a lack of understanding about the Vanagon application resulted in bad advice when you were turbo shopping and the whole situation now sucks considering the amount of money and labor that has gone into a disappointing result.
libby, as I know you were well in the conversation during my turbo selection and provided plenty of advice (which I didn't heed), I can appreciate your current stance. I do need to clarify though, I am not disappointed in the HE200, just going through a learning curve :) . I'm fairly confident I can work this out with the assistance of this forum.

It's hard to communicate what is going on with text and emoticons - I may have made things sound worse than they are. Let me try to provide a bit more clarity using 20-20 hindsight. . .

 - The old K-14 I rebuilt (including a 360 bearing) was pumping oil into my custom IC from the compressor. I worked on three different drain configurations until I made a 6 o'clock drain with sweeping curves and zero line restrictions - no change. The engine felt like it just wasn't getting enough air.
 - Assuming the turbo was toast (and not producing "quality" air, I figured I had only two choices - install a used VNT17 and mess with the linkage for many untold weekends, or purchase a brand new (somewhat proven) HE200 and go from there.
 - The Cummins specs were very specific on the size of the drain line (larger than I had) and that's when I found the PO's crappy restriction at the pan fitting (Darn!). I had already built an elaborate adapter and tweaked the center section of the new turbo to drain at 6 - no returning it now. So, I made a new drain port in the pan for the Holset and installed it (no oil in the compressor anymore BTW).

As it stands now. . .
I recently found a nearly 1-1/4" restriction in my 2-1/2" exhaust system. Possibly that was the only issue I had with the K-14 besides the crappy drain at the pan - I'll never know. they are both fixed now.

The HE200 is a far better than the K-14 in every respect save the lag at low RPM.
As for the K-14, it was pretty much tapped out at 15 PSI and the charge temps were higher than the IC could control. Air temps were running 212F at 90 ambient. I tossed the custom IC (which was quite sad) and installed a FB unit - it was better but still way too hot. Boost from the 14 ran at 10-12 at 65 mph and as mentioned - mostly hot, worthless air as well.
The HE200 runs at 7-8 at 65 and much much cooler (useable) air.

Both turbos would move the brick up a grade but the Holset has lowered the EGT's substantially from the 14. Obviously They still peak if I keep my foot in it but it seems that's just energy required and I'll get used to it. If I can, I'll find a way to increase boost without adding fuel. Theman's ride is certainly lighter and more aerodynamic and no, I don't want that much smoke. However, his build does show that high boost can be made without high EGT's and I find inspiration in that.
If I can't figure it out, I'm still better off now than I was with the K-14

As for the low end boost, after turning a few screws, I am now making very close to what I had with the k-14 . Once my new return hose arrives, I'll tweak the smoke screw a tad and I'm good. Besides, it's nice to know the turbo I have is new, not working hard at all, and has capacity to spare ;)

Big thanks again to all - this ain't over!

Jim

Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #49September 03, 2014, 07:19:29 pm

jmaddocks

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #49 on: September 03, 2014, 07:19:29 pm »
Sure, I can see 20 (where my controller is set) but it's only a blip, then it drops off.

As I doubt you're reaching the flow limits of the turbo, that seems symptomatic of the wastegate getting blown open, as Alcaid mentioned earlier.  I'd try adding preload to your wastegate, disconnecting the boost signal, and doing a buildup of accelerations (progressively adding more throttle and going to a higher rpm on each successive run) to see if your sustained boost pressure goes up.  Our 1.6 is consistently holding 24-25 psi with the same turbo at fairly high elevations (usually over 6000'). 

'89 Jetta 1.6d HE200WG, ported solid lifter head, ARP studs, FMIC, 2.5" exhaust, lightened FW, ACT clutch
'79 Rabbit ABA swap, microsquirt
'91 Corrado 1.9L T3/T04e, ported 16v head, JE pistons, Scat rods, megasquirt, peloquin, E85, etc

Reply #50September 03, 2014, 07:30:56 pm

Gizmoman

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #50 on: September 03, 2014, 07:30:56 pm »
Sure, I can see 20 (where my controller is set) but it's only a blip, then it drops off.

As I doubt you're reaching the flow limits of the turbo, that seems symptomatic of the wastegate getting blown open, as Alcaid mentioned earlier.  I'd try adding preload to your wastegate, disconnecting the boost signal, and doing a buildup of accelerations (progressively adding more throttle and going to a higher rpm on each successive run) to see if your sustained boost pressure goes up.  Our 1.6 is consistently holding 24-25 psi with the same turbo at fairly high elevations (usually over 6000').

A very good plan - I certainly think it's worth a try and thank Alcaid and you for mentioning it (again). As soon as the new return hose shows up (to replace the now leaky junk) I can get to it. It's gonna be quite an adventure as the wife and I are heading to Tahoe in it on Sunday at the latest. Three weeks tooling about, - to think, the adventure has already started and we haven't even left yet ;D
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #51September 04, 2014, 07:44:24 am

jmaddocks

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #51 on: September 04, 2014, 07:44:24 am »
Sounds like a great adventure!  Beautiful area -- we've spent a lot of time up there camping off of jeep trails.
'89 Jetta 1.6d HE200WG, ported solid lifter head, ARP studs, FMIC, 2.5" exhaust, lightened FW, ACT clutch
'79 Rabbit ABA swap, microsquirt
'91 Corrado 1.9L T3/T04e, ported 16v head, JE pistons, Scat rods, megasquirt, peloquin, E85, etc

Reply #52September 04, 2014, 07:28:42 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #52 on: September 04, 2014, 07:28:42 pm »
You probably know this, but  if your MBC system has no leakage on the downstream side, it will hold the wastegate open or at least biased toward open.

Reply #53September 04, 2014, 07:39:01 pm

Gizmoman

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #53 on: September 04, 2014, 07:39:01 pm »
Thanks,
I believe I'll be removing it altogether
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #54September 05, 2014, 01:36:06 pm

745 turbogreasel

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #54 on: September 05, 2014, 01:36:06 pm »
I would not if you want quick spool.
~.02" hole, or I just put a  small groove in  the ball seat.

Reply #55September 05, 2014, 03:02:02 pm

jmaddocks

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #55 on: September 05, 2014, 03:02:02 pm »
I would not if you want quick spool.
~.02" hole, or I just put a  small groove in  the ball seat.

I think he was talking about removing the boost signal altogether, not just the mbc -- this wouldn't be a long-term solution, but merely for troubleshooting.  Concur that he should reinstall the mbc (with hole or groove) once he gets everything dialed in, which is exactly what we did on ours.   :)
'89 Jetta 1.6d HE200WG, ported solid lifter head, ARP studs, FMIC, 2.5" exhaust, lightened FW, ACT clutch
'79 Rabbit ABA swap, microsquirt
'91 Corrado 1.9L T3/T04e, ported 16v head, JE pistons, Scat rods, megasquirt, peloquin, E85, etc

Reply #56September 05, 2014, 09:27:31 pm

Gizmoman

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #56 on: September 05, 2014, 09:27:31 pm »
Ok,
The fuel line I ordered online got pushed out in shipping so I went to the VW stealership and got about 2 ft - don't even ask how much.

The injector return lines are all in and not leaking a drop. Entirely removed the DIY MBC, turned in the smoke screw on top of the LDA about 1/8 turn and went for a spin. Bottom end power is amazing compared to what it was. A few WOT runs and found boost dropping off at 12-14 psi. Went home and adjusted the rod to the waste-gate pot (added more tension).
Back on the road it now goes up to 20 psi (could possibly go more but I backed off) and while I can see the egts climbing, they taper off as boost goes over 15. You guys were right, the MBC was only messing things up.

I don't plan on putting the MBC back in. The hard hit it was providing is too tough on the transmission. I don't think I will miss it - this brick scoots just fine without it.

I think I'm getting it now - I can turn the uphill corner in 2nd gear coming home and  up and away she goes! Before It' just chugged, and sometimes I even had to grind into 1st to get it moving up the hill - no more!
I'll back of on the fuel screw just a tad tomorrow to drop the EGT's some more. I may add a tiny amount to the smoke screw as well.

I can't thank everyone enough for all the help with this. And I can say without a doubt, the HE200 is a sweet turbo on an AAZ - even in a 5,000 lb Vanagon. The lag is gone and there is plenty of nice cool air to keep the EGT's in check ;D ;D ;D

We leave tomorrow on our three week adventure

Jim
Jim W - 82 Vanagon Westy - AAZ 1.9, Mild head port, Cummins Holset HE200WE turbo, Frozen Boost WAIC, 10" Charge-pipe intake, Ball bearing IM shaft, Giles Pump, 215/70R16, AAP 5 speed Trans. 22 lbs max boost

Reply #57September 06, 2014, 12:29:29 am

burn_your_money

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #57 on: September 06, 2014, 12:29:29 am »
Wonderful news!
Tyler

Reply #58September 06, 2014, 12:39:02 am

Alcaid

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #58 on: September 06, 2014, 12:39:02 am »
Have a safe trip Jim :)
'03 VW Golf PD130 4Motion Highline
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Reply #59September 06, 2014, 05:53:57 am

jmaddocks

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Re: HE200 and Giles 1.6 IP in a 1.9 AAZ Vanagon
« Reply #59 on: September 06, 2014, 05:53:57 am »
Great news!

Have a safe trip Jim :)

x2

Pretty nerve-wracking to be troubleshooting right before a big trip...been there, done that.
'89 Jetta 1.6d HE200WG, ported solid lifter head, ARP studs, FMIC, 2.5" exhaust, lightened FW, ACT clutch
'79 Rabbit ABA swap, microsquirt
'91 Corrado 1.9L T3/T04e, ported 16v head, JE pistons, Scat rods, megasquirt, peloquin, E85, etc