Cranking speed, direct-drive vs gear reduction starters

[Luckypabst]

I might see if I kept the old starter and get it shipshape again. It munched the brush holder on the first few revolutions after doing the head job. I'm afraid that I might have tossed it though.

Maybe I'm the only one that does it like this, but the pump timing gets checked and adjusted any time the belt comes off. I, apparently wrongly, assumed that this was SOP. My bad.

Chris

[theman53]

Tons of people never check anything.

[8v-of-fury!]

The head gasket is correct for piston protrusion. Pump timing is spot on and exactly the same as before.
Chris

If you didn't adjust the pump after putting a new timing belt on with the head I would guess that is your issue or part of it.

If you read his post at all, he said pump timing is spot on in post #11.

What is with the unnecessary 'tude moderator?

[maxfax]

The gear drive will sustain a higher RPM for longer in the very cold, whereas the direct drive is a little faster at first but drops off.

X2

[745 turbogreasel]

I still maintain an OEM grade sarter with fresh contacts and brushes will outcrank an aftermarket grade POS starter regardless of drive  type.

[theman53]

The head gasket is correct for piston protrusion. Pump timing is spot on and exactly the same as before.
Chris

If you didn't adjust the pump after putting a new timing belt on with the head I would guess that is your issue or part of it.

If you read his post at all, he said pump timing is spot on in post #11.

What is with the unnecessary 'tude moderator?

No attitude, but when most on this site say "exactly at the same spot before" it means they didn't touch it, at all, which is why I was questioning by saying "if you didn't"...if you read my post at all.

I am tired of your trivial questioning of me, please refrain from doing it further.

[TylerDurden]

You guys have really lost sight of the question.

Could be folks are looking beyond the question to the real problem.

Let's tally the basics:

Timing is by the numbers
Head replacement was proper
Starter speed is normal
No air in the fuel lines
Functional GPs

One unmentioned factor is injectors/break pressure. If unknown, I'd assume break pressure is stock or lower. Lower would advance injection, which would normally assist in cold start. Not a likely factor in this non-starter.

The major unknown is compression. Ive never heard of a 30yr old diesel engine having too much. Conversely, every VW diesel I've heard of - that started only by pushing, had low compression.

I doubt any starter will spin the engine as fast as a push start in 2nd gear.

[8v-of-fury!]

If your car fired off IMMEDIATELY after push starting it, and doesn't fire properly when warm.. I am too thinking you are low low low on compression. Or it could be excessively advanced timing (I know you timed it again back to where it was), as variables have changed and things are different know.. Do you get smoke while it is turning over? Colour?

Why was my post edited?? Did I do something against forum rules??

[745 turbogreasel]

your new starter could be  defective from day one.
Did you adjust the valves on this new head?

[TylerDurden]

If your car fired off IMMEDIATELY after push starting it, and doesn't fire properly when warm.. I am too thinking you are low low low on compression.

Low compression will have prolonged cranking/pushing when cold and brief cranking/pushing when warm.

A cold engine that starts on the first crank or push will probably have good compression.

[fatmobile]

 That's the experience with my buddy's Rabbit at the beginning of winter,.. and it wasn't even very cold.
 Borrowing/Testing an engine for a friend while Steve's is being rebuilt, the mystery engine wouldn't start at 30, lots of cranking no start.
 I pull started it with the Rabbit and it started instantly, on gravel. Suspicious. Hillbilly compression test showed good resistance to turning.
 He put a fresh bosch remanufactured in it and now it will start at -14F.
 The old one didn't seem to be cranking noticeable slow.

[Luckypabst]

Lol... I'm glad I walked away

Follow-up for you diagnostic guys:
I've been spending more time in and intend on moving soon to a much colder climate. I had to resign myself to the fact that this isn't something that can be band-aided with a different starter.

Here's the numbers, first is hot compression, second is hot compression with oil, and last is a note about which valve is leaking, working from pulley to flywheel:
360, 390, E
250, 300, I
350, 350, E
350, 360, E

I replaced the head in April of last year due to cracking the OG head. I now have 22,000 miles/11 months on what was a brand new out of the box Topline head. At the same time that I replaced the head, the starter crapped out (on the first crank as I was purging lines) and the GP relay stuck on... bad luck, Murphy's law, whatever... After getting everything sorted the Caddy went from starting immediately in all conditions to requiring excessive cranking, even when warm, in mild air temperatures. There was no lead-up to the hard starting, it came suddenly with the head job.

In talking to the company that sold the head (Aluminum Head Rebuilders in OR), they mention that the head has a one-year warranty but with the many hundreds of Topline heads they've sold, there have been no complaints.

I now have the valve cover off and when pressurizing #1, it's leaking rapidly into the exhaust while the lifters are free spinning so it's not a lifter problem, at least on this cylinder.

Chris

[745 turbogreasel]

did the glow plug blow apart in the head?

[Luckypabst]

The glow plugs are fine. They worked fine before installing the new head and were replaced with new Bosch plugs when I swapped heads. I even saved the old ones for spares.

The Topline head looks good on the bench, full of nasty spooge on the intake side. I'll be doing a ring job on Sunday, slap it together and hope it's good for another 300k.

Chris

[Toby]

If you did not test the GPs now, yoy do not know that they are "fine" NOW. Just that they were fine before. You did mention a stuck GP relay on initial start up with the new head,

There should be ZERO leakage past the valves on a good head, especially with 22,000 miles since new. So don't be too hasty in pulling the rest of the motor down.

One thing that strikes me as odd is that is starts worse warm..... This is not typical. I have only seen it once, and that was on a 2000 Jetta TDI. The hotter the weather got the worse it started until I had to park it in July. If I got it to start, it ran just fine and got good mileage. Compression was 500 across the board +/- 5 psi.

It turned out to be an IP leak. I have absolutely no leakage of diesel fuel anywhere. I replaced the the quantity adjuster & pump body O rings, and the shaft seal on the car to no avail.  When I pulled the pump and replace the rest of the seals it started on the first revolution.

In an effort to ascertain what the problem was I pinched off the fuel inlet and return hoses and put vacuum of the small return hose barb on the fitting. It would suck air like crazy. When I replaced ALL of the seals it would then hold vacuum and start reliably.

I suspect that the variable was fuel viscosity. The thinner it got the longer it took to suck the air out and fire.

I would suggest that you vacuum test the pump before you take anything else apart,