My 84 1.6 - Help wont start

[atherton213]

Background, picked up my 84 rabbit few months ago knowing it was dead and wouldnt start, ive slowly been working on the car inside and out (mostly outside because i was waiting on my bently to come).  I turn the key the car made a thud.   So from reading that might be a bad starter, so i tried to jump the starter directly.  Still no go, maybe (hopefully) a bad starter.  I tried my brand new battery (weeks old) from my 2012 VW Gti, still thud and notihing... hopefully again still bad starter.

If you could take a look at this video and please please tell me the issue isnt a seized motor

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=oM5HC4kON6A

Someone said the hand turn the engine with a wrench, what exactly should i try turning?

(i have some basic car knowledge and always like to learn... so point me in the direction i need to go)

thanks for your help

[745 turbogreasel]

in through the fender with a 19MM IIRc, turn the bolt on the crank(tight not loose)
or push in 4th if stick

[atherton213]

17mm

its turned for a little bit  (3/4 a circle) and now it wont turn any more, gonna try to push the car in 4th next

[atherton213]

What happens if I turn it the other way? Loosen not tighten

http://youtu.be/iVK6TfIdKj8

This is all it turns.... Hits like a wall and doesn't turn any more

[CRSMP5]

whoooa.... you sure timming belt not broken?? each "thud" you are making it cost more to fix when you do...

[atherton213]

Oh.... I suppose I'll stop doing that then.   All the belts feel fine, none are dried or brittle all feel tight and somewhat newish.

So what does the thud mean? And how can I fix it? Or is this gonna be engine rebuild time

[ORCoaster]

DO NOT TRY TO START OR PUSH THIS CAR!!!

This sucker is out of time and the valves are pounding the head.  GO to the back of the engine and remove that plastic plug down by the transmission.  Look in there for a red dot on the flywheel.  It has to line up with the small V shape on the top of the plug area.  If these two can come into alignment with that little bit of movement you have great.  Then look to see if the one hole in the pulley on the Injection Pump is lined up with the bracket hole behind the pulley itself.  

My guess is that it will not be.  Try a couple of longer sockets to get a sense if they line up OK.  If the hole and the Red dot are in line at the same time you still need to check the Cam position.  Pull the valve cover off and look at the back of the camshaft.  On the drivers side.  Is that line going straight across and parallel with the top of the block?  

Some part of the timing is off enough that you may have two of these align but the third one will be messed up.  GET A Bentley or run to the nearby library and look up the timing procedure.  Check the tools sticky on the forum.  Some items can be fabricated and duplicated using home items.  Cam lock for me is a 3 inch Stanley Door hinge, folded and inserted it fits perfectly.

I fear you have already bent a valve on this one and you may be pulling the head to fix it.  Hope not.

Please do not try starting again until you can use that wrench to turn the engine over completely.  I have better luck reaching up under the car from under the front then inside like your video.  

Best of luck fella.  Big learn is on.  DAS

This is how mine lines up for timing on the flywheel.
http://i1087.photobucket.com/albums/j475/Orcoaster/IMG-20120530-00220.jpg

[atherton213]

well crap.... there is a good chance of bent valve.  I bought the car like this so they (previous owner) might have tried to fix it as well... or made it worse.

[ORCoaster]

May also be fine, not much room to get a lot of run up.  Valves are cheap, head gasket is probably the more expensive of the two.  But have heart.  Get it timed correctly, prove it will turn over by hand and then try starting it.  Pull Cold start all the way out, cycle the glow plugs once on the dash light and push your foot down about 1/3 throttle.  Cycle the glows again and then crank it over. 

If it has sat quite awhile the lines may be dry and that takes a different bit of work but read around here about lack of fuel to the injectors.  I only have to crack the nuts on the top of the injectors if I remove the lines totally from the IP.  Then it seems to get an air lock going.  But other than that a little fuel in one or two injectors can get mine to fire. 

You're going to love this car when you hear it running.  Trust me. 

[745 turbogreasel]

Teh reason I suggested not turning it backward be the nut,  if you did  loosen the nut, then  got it started, it would ruin quite a few parts when the  crank timing  gear came loose. 

Pretty  sure you will be taking that apart anyway now, that sounds like a pretty solid obstruction.

Any valves involved, you will want to remove the adjusting shim, and inspect the lifter for cracks as well.

[atherton213]

this is what mine looks like, which looks nothing like yours... this is the hole on the top of the transmission correct? ... i do have my Bentley just at home and i snapped this pic on the way out
im assuming bad... 

and for fun, this is what the whole car looks like

[745 turbogreasel]

Is that a gas flywheel?

[atherton213]

? i have no idea

would it work in this car? or is this maybe what has killed it from working?

[Dakotakid]

Yes, a gas flywheel will work just fine with the appropriately sized clutch. They just have different markings.

The diesel flywheels have those bosses or pegs (whatever they are called) as is being viewed through your hole. I've never known what they are for although you can use them to lock the flywheel through the hole when torquing the crank bolt. But, that is for another day.

Listen, you need to put a little more effort into finding your top dead center mark.....you're there....we're here. You should have a "zero" mark on it somewhere for your indicator. Or, sometimes they are not the "zero" and are instead a sort of filed-out "V" notch. I have long forgotten which engines had which.

I have never seen one marked with red paint (unless someone had added red or white paint along the way to enhance the process) (and that is a nice idea). I am currently 65 miles away from my stack of parts to examine a flywheel and tell you how many degrees you are off.

Keep rotating the crank and peering through the hole. Hey...ain't nobody ever said it was going to be easy out west here.....
But, yes, it sure seems this engine is out of time and it may have gotten damaged due to the mistake.

There is a mountain of info in the Bentley. You just have to step up to the plate and apply yourself. We all had to start somewhere as well. The Rabbit appears to have potential for a serviceable little rig. I had one just like it many years ago. It is a question of whether or not there is rust under those floor carpets or shock towers, etc.

Edit: And, yes, stepping into one of these which has a "negative history" from a previous owner is a challenge (much like taking a barefoot walk where people routinely walk their dogs!). But, you can learn and grow from the experience (so much for the psycho-shrinko effect). Not to mention watch your wallet get thinner and thinner. Been there...done it....what size of t-shirt do you wear again?

[ORCoaster]

Wow,  this is why we can buy a nice car for 750 dollars  Actual price quoted to be 400 and we know why now don't we.  
Someone has seriously messed up the timing on this one.  I would suggest that you start with the basics.  Remove the timing belt cover if you haven't already done that.  Then loosen the camshaft nut but don't take it all the way off, you don't have to for this procedure.  

You have to keep the shaft itself from turning so a large pair of vice grips on the shaft, not the cam lobes, is what I use.  Then you can give the nut holding the pulley a nice sharp snap to break the nut loose.  This will however not necessarily loosen the pulley itself as the front of the shaft is tapered and the pulley kind of sticks to it when the nut is tightened.  You have to apply a sharp rap of a hammer to punch to where the pulley is on the shaft.  Hitting the outside of the pulley where the belt goes is not where to be whacking on it.  You can use a nice flat punch and come at the back of the pulley and give it a short rap and it should be set free.  If the PO just did this work I wouldn't expect it to be on there all that tight.  

Once the pulley is free the cam will move into an all closed position on the valves.  Check the drivers side of the back of the cam.  See that line across the flange?  It should be even with the head now.  Or just slightly up on one end.

You don't have any of the special tools yet is that correct?  

So at this point I would be moving the crankshaft very little in order to figure out the place where it is TDC.  From the picture you sent us I would say you are BTDC and that rotating the crank in a clock wise fashion about 1 inch of travel on the end of the wrench will bring TDC into view.  You might be able to do this by turning the alternator fans with your left hand as you gaze into the hole.  

Something tells me the person that did the work thought it needed to be at the mark BTC like a gasser but that is not the case with a Diesel.  On the Money Honey is what you want and we move the IP to get the needed advance.  

If you get to the 0 mark great.  Find a 3/4 inch bolt or a socket to line up the hole on the puley on the IP with the one in the bracket behind it to keep it from moving.  What's that?  You say when the IP is lined up like that the flywheel is no longer at TDC.  Thought so.  That means they put the Timing belt on with the incorrect length between the IP and the Crank.  So you are going to have to loosen up the tensioner with a 13 mm wrench and get this distance correct.  Once the tension is off the belt you should be able to slide it off the top of the camshaft pulley and make it right.

Start with the crank on TDC.  Bring the belt around to the IP pulley and slide it on with no slack in the belt.  Then tuck it back on the tensioner and work it up on the Cam pulley.  You need to tension the belt and not over tighten it.  Bentley says a 45 degree twist should be able to be made in the belt between the IP and the Cam pulley.  I bring the tension in so that the crank doesn't move.  Top to bottom I think it is.  

Once you have the proper twist to the belt, tighten the tensioner nut.  Then put what ever you use to keep the cam straight across the top of the head in that slot in the back.  Probably going to have to move the camshaft some to get it in there.  Once that is done secure the shaft with the vice grips and tighten the cam nut.  

Now pull the socket or bolt out of the IP and try to turn the engine over by hand.  It shouldn't clunk or stop moving IF it does we need to figure out if the TDC mark is really TDC on the #1 cylinder.  Maybe it is not.  That will be another days lesson.  Hopefully this will work for you.

Tough to do when you're there and we are Here.

But it can be done.