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Head bolt spacers...Three ?!?
by
RustyToy
on 24 Sep, 2010 15:14
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well, yesterday I blew the head gasket. I've seen it coming for a while now, I'm about 90% certain that the PO put a new gasket on reusing the old bolts.
so yesterday I pulled the head off and carted it off to the machine shop. When I pulled the bolts out each one had 3 spacers on it. Is this normal? My new bolts came with one. Not 3.
I'm putting it all back together tomorrow evening. I'd love some insight on this before I put it all back together. Anybody got any they would like to share?
Thanks!
Almost forgot. This is for my '85 1.6NA Golf.
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#1
by
rs899
on 25 Sep, 2010 03:51
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It is probably an 11mm head or the PO used some non-standard head bolts.
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#2
by
RustyToy
on 25 Sep, 2010 07:19
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They were triple square bolts. I have no doubt they were reused and stretched. Wondering if perhaps that wasn't the reason for the 'extra' spacers? I hesitate to call them extra because I don't know how many are supposed to be there.
As far as it being an 11mm head, The head has machined recesses for the head bolts to fit into. When I pulled the bolts there was a washer that fit perfectly into that recessed area,then another washer on top of that (slightly thinner) and then the washer that comes on the bolt. (and they just slid right off the bolt)
I guess question now is, should I put it back together the way it came apart? I'm inclined to lean towards a yes on that one.
Another quick question regarding head gasket. The gasket that came off was a 2 notch gasket. I have nothing available to measure piston protrusion above the deck surface. Knowing that I just had .003 inches shaved off the head and knowing that the head had been off at least once before (possibly shaved) would i be safer to go with a 3 notch gasket?
Inquiring minds and all that......
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#3
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 25 Sep, 2010 08:07
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i really doubt you can stretch an old head bolt that much. 2 extra spacers makes up like ~1/4" and if you stretched a bolt that bad, you could see it holding it up next to a decent bolt.. he probably had some extra washers left over from the non stretch bolts.. used them there.
but he probably also didnt know that the non stretch bolts are re-useable..
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#4
by
Powered by Spearco
on 25 Sep, 2010 15:55
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I've seen 11mm diesel cylinder heads bolted down with 12pt. Gasser bolts. I don't think it lasts long though. I always thought that 11mm bolt diesel blocks used 6pt. reuseable bolts. Or is it the other way?
Anyone confirm this.
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#5
by
rs899
on 26 Sep, 2010 05:29
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Yes, the factory used 6-point socket headed bolts on the 11mm diesel head that are reusable (if you dare).
Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
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#6
by
RustyToy
on 26 Sep, 2010 07:05
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Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
To be perfectly honest, i'm not certain of much at this point. This little Golf is giving me a crash course in VW repair. 11mm,12mm,mech,hydro,1 notch,2 notch,3 notch,ordering "Head Gasket Sets" that Ironically don't include anything resembling a head gasket.
This is what I do know. The head has been machined,the deck cleaned,new head gasket and new bolts are installed and torqued down. Now this afternoon I am going to throw on a new timing belt because while cranking the engine around by hand last night to make sure that nothing was binding or hitting something it wasn't supposed to (pistons & valves) I noticed just how bad my timing belt looks.
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#7
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 26 Sep, 2010 10:43
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Are you sure this is a 12mm block we are talking about?
To be perfectly honest, i'm not certain of much at this point. This little Golf is giving me a crash course in VW repair. 11mm,12mm,mech,hydro,1 notch,2 notch,3 notch,ordering "Head Gasket Sets" that Ironically don't include anything resembling a head gasket.
This is what I do know. The head has been machined,the deck cleaned,new head gasket and new bolts are installed and torqued down. Now this afternoon I am going to throw on a new timing belt because while cranking the engine around by hand last night to make sure that nothing was binding or hitting something it wasn't supposed to (pistons & valves) I noticed just how bad my timing belt looks.
you get a gasser head gasket kit, then order the proper thickness diesel gasket for it. thats how most places sell them atleast.
and my 11mm diesel has 12pt gasser stretch bolts. it has to. cause its a 16D, with a 17mm crank bolt. so it should have 11mm head bolts.
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#8
by
rs899
on 26 Sep, 2010 11:05
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to the OP. If you have a 12mm block, you can either use 12mm stretch bolts that VW intended or retrofit with studs. 11mm bolts will not fit a 12mm block (they are to small in ID).
If you have an 11mm block, you can reuse the original 11mm hex socket head bolts (danger), , use studs or, as ROR did, use gasser 11mm stretch bolts. I do not know how well this works, though I have pulled quite a number of heads out of boneyards with this arrangement (is that why they were there?). The options with an 11mm block are not great.
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#9
by
R.O.R-2.0
on 26 Sep, 2010 11:16
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personal opinion is that the head bolts just dont care. i run 22 psi to my 1.6 with gasser head bolts and it takes it gladly and just asks for more..
and i did not put the bolts there, i would have used cosworth studs.. some other previous retard before me put them in.
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#10
by
RustyToy
on 26 Sep, 2010 13:45
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just to clarify. To chase the threads in the head bolt holes I used a 12x1.75 tap. So I'm going out on a limb and calling it a 12mm block. I used oem 12mm stretch bolts. New ones.
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#11
by
zukgod1
on 27 Sep, 2010 07:41
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
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#12
by
RustyToy
on 27 Sep, 2010 17:02
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
You're right. Never did get an answer to that question. I went ahead with a 2 notch gasket. Same as what I took off.
since I bought the car I've suspected the pump timing was off a tudge. Now after installing a new belt and quintuple checking that EVERY mark is EXACTLY where it it supposed to be I am headed out to the shop with my new dial meter to set the pump timing and see if she'll fire. i miss driving my Golf. i miss being able to fuel up on Monday and go all week on one tank of fuel. (140 mile daily commute!)
Wish me luck!
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#13
by
Mark(The Miser)UK
on 28 Sep, 2010 17:42
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I don't see a reply to your head gasket question.
Shaving the head means nothing to the head gasket.
Use a new 2 notch if you cant measure to make sure.
You're right. Never did get an answer to that question. I went ahead with a 2 notch gasket. Same as what I took off.
since I bought the car I've suspected the pump timing was off a tudge. Now after installing a new belt and quintuple checking that EVERY mark is EXACTLY where it it supposed to be I am headed out to the shop with my new dial meter to set the pump timing and see if she'll fire. i miss driving my Golf. i miss being able to fuel up on Monday and go all week on one tank of fuel. (140 mile daily commute!)
Wish me luck!
Actually, because valves are not flush with the head, but slightly sunk, skimming head brings valves closer to piston at TDC. This raises the compression slightly, [[not neccessarilya bad thing] but also increases the likelyhood of valve clash. I have recently reringed an overskimmed head that used to have a 2 nothch gasket. Valve clash means that I had to use a3 notch, [or actuallly a 5 notch 1.5] to gain a few thou gap . The only downside, is that I've gone from 45mpg to 55 to 65mpg 
...
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#14
by
CRSMP5
on 05 Oct, 2010 23:34
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i have done this... and the guys 11mm head bolt head is why...
the 12mm heads have more area then the 11mm ones do.. so you have to add said spacers else the bolts will bottom out..
ive also done gasser strech bolts on old 11mm head/block too..
so basically i expect you have a modded 11mm head on a 12mm block and hence require said spacers/washers..