G-Teched my 1.6TD - Part 2

[RabbitGTDguy]

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=406

Jake detailed what was occurring on his. This is getting very interesting...


Malone, any plans to put the car on a chassis dyno once your calibrations, tuning, etc. is done? That'd be interesting to see


Joe

[malone]

DutchTouch, that seems like a pretty big difference between Summer and Winter fuel. I don't know how Summer vs. Winter fuel compares up here. I started driving this 1.6TD about 3 to 4 weeks ago. Would be nice if I could run Summer fuel for a while. I have yet to find what my mpg is either without an odometer

Glad he likes the chip...

RabbitGTDguy, what were you trying to convey by posting that link? There's some different info in there.. If it's concerning head damage from revving too high, fspGTD overrevved during a mis-shift (downshift instead of upshift). I have the necessary pieces in my 1.9 head that should be able to tolerate high sustained revs so I'm not worried.

Absolutely, I want to get this thing on a chassis dyno after it's tuned.

[935racer]

I was talking about injection pumps, what gets toasted when they are revved too high?

[malone]

I was talking about injection pumps, what gets toasted when they are revved too high?

I have not experienced a blown 12mm pump in a TDI, but my friend said his pump seized. When he removed the timing belt he had a much harder time turning the pump; it just seized. We also found out later that a few hundred different 12mm pump heads have very low RPM rating. Only one of them had the highest max RPM of 2,250 if I remember correctly.

I'm not sure what part in particular gave away and how. I'll ask my friend again or perhaps wait for Giles to reply.

[935racer]

Yeah I have been wondering what exactly gets screwed up when  pump head is over revved, when I was looking through the bosch catalog the other day and I think the highest revving pump head I could find was 2150, which is obviously not high enough for what we need. I am guessing it is the distributor plunger that gets seized in the plunger barrel or maybe the control collar getting seized to plunger. I don't think it would cause issues further into the pump until it actually seizes, but I am anxcious to know.

Also if we swap in a 10mm head from a direct injection pump I am betting that the plunger return springs will be stiffer to compensate for the extra lift in the DI camplate, so in theory the complete 10mm head swap should keep the camplate from skipping on the rollers.

[vwmike]

Yeah I have been wondering what exactly gets screwed up when  pump head is over revved, when I was looking through the bosch catalog the other day and I think the highest revving pump head I could find was 2150, which is obviously not high enough for what we need. I am guessing it is the distributor plunger that gets seized in the plunger barrel or maybe the control collar getting seized to plunger. I don't think it would cause issues further into the pump until it actually seizes, but I am anxcious to know.

Also if we swap in a 10mm head from a direct injection pump I am betting that the plunger return springs will be stiffer to compensate for the extra lift in the DI camplate, so in theory the complete 10mm head swap should keep the camplate from skipping on the rollers.

The TDI plunger foot is larger in diameter and uses a larger indexing pin so you would have to do some machining to fit it with the 1.6 cam plate.

[935racer]

Yeah I know the tdi plungers are a bit differnet and do not fit the 1.6 camplate, I wa splanning on grabbing a head out of a ford ranger as they seem to have the right head assembly to bolt into our pumps. I pretty sure I saw a thread with some info on which heads fit in our pumps anyone know where that thread is at?

[RedRotors]

Every VE head are interchangeable, so basically any VE head is bolt on  on our pump, as mentionned, the plunger foot of 10,11 ans 12mm dosen't fit in the 1.6 camplate BUT, fits perfectly in a 1.9TD camplate, so you swap a 1.9TD camplate into your 1.6 pump and you'r in business with big head/rotor..

Cheers,
Marc/

[935racer]

Really? I was pretty sure when I talked to Giles last week that he said I needed a different camplate to go with a 12mm head, and we were refering to malones pump which has a 1.9 camplate already, but I may have misheard what he said. Thanks for the info Marc.

[RedRotors]

The camplate from the pump number NR 0 460 494 373, from an 1.9TD ( don't remember the year ) accept an 10,11 and 12mm plunger. But, for example, 4BT 12 mm head dosen't have the needed guide pin seat to accept the right guide pin, some people use 1.6 ones, but... You better put the right stuff into that pump..

Marc/

[935racer]

Hey Marc thats what we were talking about thanks for refreshing my memory.

[RedRotors]

No problem buddy  

Marc/

[RabbitGTDguy]

DutchTouch, that seems like a pretty big difference between Summer and Winter fuel. I don't know how Summer vs. Winter fuel compares up here. I started driving this 1.6TD about 3 to 4 weeks ago. Would be nice if I could run Summer fuel for a while. I have yet to find what my mpg is either without an odometer

Glad he likes the chip...

RabbitGTDguy, what were you trying to convey by posting that link? There's some different info in there.. If it's concerning head damage from revving too high, fspGTD overrevved during a mis-shift (downshift instead of upshift). I have the necessary pieces in my 1.9 head that should be able to tolerate high sustained revs so I'm not worried.

Absolutely, I want to get this thing on a chassis dyno after it's tuned.

sorry malone...i apparently misread the post... I assumed by 12mm he was talking about the "12mm" cylinder head itself... not the pump head. My bad....whoops. Guess I don't read into as well as you guys do. To me an over-revved cylinder head is an over revved cylinder head, whether a downshift or result of an upshift, the damage still comes down to valves, pistons and camshafts... I'm interested in knowing how you've accounted for this in the 1.9 head.  Also...haven't read into your setup but you must be using a larger diameter mainshaft pump to support the rpm's it'll be turning at.  But the topic was regarding an injection pump so the link was unwarranted.

Kudos...

as far as a 12mm head seizing up...injection pump this time so its specified... Karl Mullendore had a 11mm head swapped into his hybrid pump and it seized up on him. the plunger seized into the head assembly. Tried to right it after the fact with no luck and the pump ran pretty bad after that.

I'm using a modified cummins 4bt pump for the m-TDI setup, but thats another post, another forum.  sorry for the confusion...

Joe

[QuickTD]

I'm of the opinion that the vast majority of 11/12mm pump head failures are due to improper assembly or dirt or both. Most of the failed pumps have been assembled by people that may have been unfamiliar with the finer points of injection pump service. Cleanliness is vitally important, I've heard of some people actually doing the plunger/head swap with the pump installed in the car, not the best situation. Even the smallest dirt particle can fill up the clearance between the plunger and the head and cause seizure. Another potential source of trouble is unbalanced plunger return springs. Few people realize that most things that look like washers in a VE pump are in fact shims. The free length of the plunger springs must be matched with these shims so that the plunger is not displaced from its centered position by unbalanced spring force. Using a die grinder to hog out a 1.6 camplate so that it fits an 11 or 12mm plunger would also be a no-no...

 If carefully assembled under clean conditions I see no reason that a 12mm head cannot survive at 5000rpm. Camplate "float" is another matter that will have to be dealt with at high rpm. Naturally, it will be worse with the greater weight of the larger plunger. Heavier return springs would be the only solution.

[vwmike]

This seems like a good opportunity to talk about the different 12mm pump heads.



I hope Marc doesn't mind. Here is a picture of a few different 12mm plungers. Notice how both of the 4BT plungers have a groove that runs the circumference of the plunger. I can guess what purpose this serves, but I'd like to hear some other comments on the subject. The one from Marc does not have this groove which is consistant with most of the other VW and peugeot plungers.