vw/ volvo 6cyl (turbo) and audi 5cyl (turbo)

[purvisgs]

Hi, I spent quite a while looking around online and couldn't really find any info about the turbos in these engines (the vw/ volvo 6cyl and audi 5cyl td)  

I came across a few of these "parts engines"  and I am interested to find out what might be usefull for my 1.6td projects.....


any idea what model turbos these engines use?

weak spots?  how sturdy is the head?

how hard to make one of these fit into a rabbit or vanagon?  any resources online that I didn't stumble across?

anyone have the overall dimensions for these engines?

could the ip be usefull (for parts or?)  for a 1.6td?

Thank you!
Greg

[Piper106]

" how hard to make one of these fit into a rabbit or vanagon?"

Beyond hard on a Rabbit.  Both the 5 and 6 are too long to fit in the Rabbit engine compartment.  You would have to cut away so much of the chassis structure on the passenger side there would not be any strength left.   Second, as far as I know, both the five and six have a different bolt pattern on the flywheel/clutch end of the engine than the four cylinder, and would not bolt to a four cylinder transmission.

As far as the Vanagon/Eurovan, I though the some of the early nineties??? versions came with the inline 5 cylinder gas engine.  The Audi 5 diesel likely would fit, don't know about the Volvo 6.

Piper106

[fspGTD]

Hi, I spent quite a while looking around online and couldn't really find any info about the turbos in these engines (the vw/ volvo 6cyl and audi 5cyl td)  
...
could the ip be usefull (for parts or?)  for a 1.6td?

The 5-cyl Audi 2.0TD appears to use a KKK K24 turbo that has very similar if not identical compressor specs as the 1.6lTD's K24.  However, the turbo is a different part number so there is something different about it... I'd guess the turbine housing isn't the same.  I don't know if it would bolt up.

The 6-cyl Volvo 2.4TD uses some kind of Garrett turbo.

Despite the fact that at least the Volvo 2.4TD pump comes with a 10mm pump head, the injection pumps or pump heads can't be swapped from either 5- or 6-cylinder motors to a 4-cylinder due to the extra cylinder(s).

There are internal engine parts that could be swapped to a 1.6lTD if you were so inclined.  Pistons, rods, probably cylinder head components like valves and valve springs, fuel injectors, glow plugs, etc.

[fspGTD]

Thanks for the Audi5k turbo info, Andrew.

And some more info on the Volvo turbo specs...
It is called a TA0307, and it is definitely designed for more flow than the 1.6lTD Garrett TA0304.  Although the compressor has the same OD as the 1.6lTD, it has a larger tip height and inducer bore.  Its compressor trim is 50 versus 35 on the 1.6lTD's Garrett TA0304!

[moTthediesel]

how hard to make one of these fit into a rabbit or vanagon?

If I had access to a Audi 5 cly diesel, I would look for a Porsche 924, or better yet 944 to mount it in. The bolt pattern of the block will bolt right up to bellhousings in those cars. The 944 can often be found for cheap due to timing belt failures  

moT

[jackbombay]

The 5-cyl Audi 2.0TD appears to use a KKK K24 turbo

 

[FJ40Jim]

Hi, I spent quite a while looking around online and couldn't really find any info about the turbos in these engines (the vw/ volvo 6cyl and audi 5cyl td)  
I came across a few of these "parts engines"  and I am interested to find out what might be usefull for my 1.6td projects.....
any idea what model turbos these engines use?

My 745TD has a garret T3.

weak spots?  how sturdy is the head?

The timing belt is the weak spot.  It looks to be the same width on 4,5 or 6 cyl engines.  Apparently it is approaching it's design limits when tasked w/ turning 12 valves and a 6-pot IP.  Service interval is 60K and they will pop at 75K.  To the Volvo crowd, this is unacceptable, so the D24T engine has gotten a very bad reputation w/ them.

Head is same basic design as 4-cyl.

how hard to make one of these fit into a rabbit or vanagon?  any resources online that I didn't stumble across?

Forget about transverse mounting in a rabbit.  Obviously, the 5cyl fits in Quantum and 4000 and 5000.  5cyl was also installed in Vanagons in other markets.  5 and 6 cyls were installed in Volvo 200 and 700 series cars.  6cyl was installed in VW "LT", which looks like a bigger vanagon sold in other markets.

anyone have the overall dimensions for these engines?

There is one of the D24T 6cyl engines on a stand in my shop.  If you need the dimensions, I can measure it.

could the ip be usefull (for parts or?)  for a 1.6td?

They're all VE pumps, so parts are interchangeable.  Many pieces are going to be different because of differing number of cylinders.

[veeman]

jackbombay:  that exhaust manifold looks very similar to the gasser turbo EM  only it lacks the external wastegate.  For fun, I compared the part numbers...

035-129-591 (early 5-cyl gasser turbo EM)
069-129-591 (early 5-cyl TD EM)

The problems with these manifolds is that they often develop cracking around the collector area (inside where the runners meet) and also in the casting between the runners on the outside.  Some cracks don't seem to hurt the part's functionality while some users have reported leaks that warranted repairs (welding the cracks).

People have speculated (in the gasser Audi world) that the weight of the turbo and heat-induced failure on 5-cyl engine mounts cause problems with those manifolds, however, I don't know if that's a problem shared by the diesels or with the 6-cyl's diesels.  How do your manifolds look?  I think you probably have two of them now for your project, right?

Next... I did see a rabbit once that had a 5-cyl mounted in it.  I believe it was in England and the install was pretty rough.  They kept the north / south orientation and I believe they used an Audi 4000 / coupe GT style fwd transmission.  I'll see if I can find pics.  There's also a greeen quattro mk1 Golf (rabbit) running around with a high hp S4 (20vt 5-cyl) engine in it.  I believe that's the "Dubweiser" car.  

So...it has been done, but  in the long run, I think putting a 5-cyl in an A1 would be rather difficult...custom motor mounts and steering components to be sure.

[jackbombay]

How do your manifolds look?  I think you probably have two of them now for your project, right?

    The second one is still not here, appearantly the engine they were going to ship me failed some test of thers just before they wer going to ship it, they just got 2 more in and they will call me with comp test results and the like once they get them tested  :roll:

 The manifold I have has no cracks, no idea how many miles the engine had it came off of, but it has many miles on it judging by the lip at the top of the cylinder wall. Maybe the gassers crack them more often due to higher EGTs.

[DutchTouch]

The 2.0 5000 TD motor was good for max of 140 to 150k miles before oil consumption or cracked  compression rings caused problems.  I drove mine into the ground, bored the motor and did 1 over pistons, and it was burning a quart of oil every 800 miles within 260k miles.

Number 5 cylinder runs too hot and loses compression first.... Happened to me both times.... It's just too far away  there in the back, where the heat is the greatest.  I ran Shell Rotella T  the whole time, new air filters every 30k.

They just don't last, even with the two radiators on the front and the oil cooler radiator located in the Right Front wheel well.  Too much heat.  I could watch the oil temp come up on the gauge if I cruised open flat ground at 62mph.

[VWRacer]

Looks pretty darned good to me, Andrew!  

There is an old saying in racing: To finish first, first ya gotta finish. So who cares what it looks like? You made it. It's on the car and running (or will be soon enough). That's a darned sight better than most of us!

Rock on, dude!  :!:

[fspGTD]

Very nice work!

[935racer]

That audi k24 apears to have the same rectangle flange that my rebuilt airresearch t3 has. Speaking of which, anyone know any of the specs for an airreasearch t3? There isn't anything on any of the housings, my buddy erik just rebuilt it and got the shaft polished and balanced and stuff. I'll ask him if he has any measurements. Jake you know how to take measurements don't you? I could pull the housings off and than yeah thats were I don't know what I am doing.

[fspGTD]

That audi k24 apears to have the same rectangle flange that my rebuilt airresearch t3 has. Speaking of which, anyone know any of the specs for an airreasearch t3? There isn't anything on any of the housings, my buddy erik just rebuilt it and got the shaft polished and balanced and stuff. I'll ask him if he has any measurements. Jake you know how to take measurements don't you? I could pull the housings off and than yeah thats were I don't know what I am doing.

Yep I can help you with that.  "T3" describes the OD of the turbine wheel but nothing else.  Sometimes you can get the other specs from a catalog without having to measure them.  Do you know what car the turbo came off of, or have a model number off that turbo you are interested in learning more about?

If you pull the housings though, you'll want to measure the outside diameters of the compressor and turbine wheels, the "minor" diameters (where the air enters into the compressor and exits the turbine) of those wheels, and the tip height (the thickness or width of the portion of the blades extending to the OD) can also be useful.

I can help you make sense of the compressor.  Basically the way I understand it, the larger the "major" diameter of the compressor, the more the pressure ratio capacity, and the larger the "minor" diameter and the compressor tip height, the greater the airflow capacity (although at the expense of more rotating assembly inertia and turbo lag.)