No warm start no joy-new engine

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

I think it is the pump. The pump gets warm and it can't develop the pressure to open the injectors when it is hot. Same thing with the other pump... just so happens I have two tired pumps here (not that surprising).

If you suspect a tired/worn injection pump, an easy test is to cool the injection pump off when it's hot and see if it starts. I'd cool it in stages so as not to "shock" the pump. I'd have 6 pots of water at 6 different temperatures ready: 160F, 140F, 120F, 100F, 80F,60F. Pour one pot at a time on the pump starting with the hottest,and see if it starts.

[stopping]

Hello and thanks for the suggestions.

I did cool the IP with cool water and it seemed to make a difference. I will do a more extreme (hotter from running longer) test soon.

So if it is worn can I increase the internal pressure will that solve the starting problem? And how does a pump that worn affect the engine... damage from improper advance for example.

I guess it would be good to rebuild it.

 

[stopping]

cooling the pump head with water made little difference. I would like to say it did but I got the engine hot by driving it for 20min, tried to start it, nothing; cooled with water constantly running over the head with a garden hose.....periodic starts. It took about 20min but it did start.... I guess that is better than it was before.
Is it still a bad pump?

 Again there is good cranking... the fuel solenoid plunger has been pulled to eliminate that potential problem... so there is fuel, fast cranking, glow plugs and compression? It's got to be good. But I will see when I get the tester later today.
 

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

A hot engine should start as soon as you crank the starter if everything is in order. You need good compression, properly timed engine and fuel for it to run. You said compression is good, engine is timed. Do you have air in the lines after you shut off the hot engine and not getting fuel? Have you tried cracking the nut at the injectors and verified fuel is spitting out of there while cranking the hot engine?

[lovinthedeez]

whenever I see a warm engine not starting, I think of this thread...
http://forums.vwvortex.com/zerothread?id=3054819

i just recently learned the importance of very good grounds on my diesel 

[stopping]

Compression is good.... well.... getting good, 380 was the lowest.

It must be the pump. I will have it rebuilt starting tomorrow.

Thanks for your help everyone.

Stv

[Rabbit TD]

Compression is good.... well.... getting good, 380 was the lowest.

It must be the pump. I will have it rebuilt starting tomorrow.

Thanks for your help everyone.

Stv

The problem with getting the pump rebuilt it seems so many people on here have it done and it comes back not what they expected it to be unless it is from someone like Giles.  This could add to your diagnosing the problem some more which you don't need.  I doubt seriously you have 2 bad pumps.  Just out of curiosity are both the fuel solenoids bad on the pumps?  Your compression nummbers {cold I presume} seem to be alright if 380 is the lowest, what is the highest.  If you want to possibly eliminate fuel or confirm it as a problem why not try shooting a spray of wd-40 in the intake and see if it tries to fire or run for a little from it?  I've done it on my T/D to confirm I wasn't getting enough fuel and the motor fired right up on it and ran for a few seconds.  I shot mine right into the turbo, about a 2 second blast, don't over do it because there is no throttle control doing this and you don't want the engine to  rev up to high for too long.  Don't use starting fluid for this test though, it's too volattile on a hot engine and has no lubrication at all.  The WD-40 is a lot safer if it's a spray, not a stream.  I've even used brake-kleen just to see if it would fire before diagnosing these kinds of problems.  Just don't keep feeding it something like that to keep it running if it doesn't have oil of some type in it but it has to be in a spray form not liquid as it will cause serious problems because it doesn't compress at all.  This kind of stuff is not for someone who doesn't have a good bit of experience and able to use the right judgement though and I don't know if you've ever done these kinds of things before.  If not then I guess I better say don't try it.  But if it would fire off the spray then you have a fuel flow problem, if it doesn't then you're back to compression again.  You say it spins over fine so that pretty much would eliminate the electrical system period and you don't have the plunger in the solenoid so that eliminates it as a problem also.  It starts and runs cold so that pretty much eliminates timing as an issue also.  I'd hate to see you spend a bundle rebuilding a pump that might be fine the way it is and come back not as good as when it left and you still won't know the real cause and have a new problem as well.  Me, I'd do the WD-40 test but if you've never done this stuff before especialy on a diesel get somebody who has done  these type of things or don't try it.  Obviously it's either fuel or compression related because it starts and runs when cool and cranks good when warm and until you can eliminate fuel itself it's still just guesswork.  If the valves are to tight, just because you have 380 when cold it doesn't mean it's still there when they stretch a little when hot.  I don't know what all your compression numbers were either but both my 1.6's after being bored had 450-475 right off the bat and climbed to 500 when they broke in so until you can eliminate fuel as the cause I still say your valves are leaking for whatever reason.

[stopping]

I used propane to get it started when warm..... good stuff! No problem with over fueling either. This is a hydraulic head.

The compression numbers were at the lowest 380 at the highest... 460 with a couple of 430's in between.
Yes those numbers are cold.

I will be trying the other pump and putting it through the paces in the morning before I decide on a rebuild. There is a decent place here.. came recommended called Lew Diesel. http://www.canpages.ca/page/QC/pointe-claire/lew-dieselec-inc/4926956.html

[theman53]

have you done the voltage test or ran new positive/negative cables? It is easier and cheaper than a new pump and won't hurt if they aren't the problem to have new. Same with the starter. I would have them tested before sinking the money for a new pump and it still might not work.

[92EcoDiesel Jetta]

You said engine is tight. Have you tried turning the engine by hand at the crankshaft bolt both cold and hot? Did it feel much tighter when hot?  Have you checked the fuel tank vent and is there tank vacuum? You only gave cold compression numbers. What are the hot numbers?

[stopping]

Thanks for responding.

I put my old pump on along with the IP pressure tester I have and it starts hot.... it wanted to start on one injector! when I tightened the second injector it ran quite smooth considering.

The starter, battery, wires, glow plugs, tank/ fuel restriction have all been eliminated as factors. Good for me cause they are better than ever now. really good cranking speed now despite the new engine. 

I have not tried the hot cold turn it by hand trick that is a good one.. I will and get back to you.

I did not test the engine hot since caveman did not have enough time to wait for me to change it to my old pump.

Good news this morning. The old pump is behaving different than the "new" one. It starts the van when hot! So I miss read the starter/ battery... all that and those problems with bad pump. The pump might be bad but it is for other reason than warm start... I would say it is good... I need to fix a leak in the cold start (from worn aluminum not bad o rings) The internal pressure was too high (not set by me) and may have contributed to head gasket failure do to dynamic advance advancing too much. I removed the pump regulator and set it to 40psi/1000rpm. Sounds a bit more relaxed now.

I will have the other pump rebuilt by the masters in Newfoundland.

[the caveman]

It's okay Steve , you can tell everyone it was my fault for " selling " you a bad pump.

[Rabbit TD]

I'm glad to hear that you got it narrowed down to a fuel problem, at least you know now what kind of Gremlins to look for.  I haven't tried propane yet, what do you do, just use a small propane  torch and let it shoot in the intake?  I hope your pump comes back good but I think you'll get it straightened out pretty quick now

[burn_your_money]

Glad you got it running. I was going to suggest push starting it when it's hot just to see what happens, but I suppose that's not so easy in a van.

[stopping]

Just a note:

40psi at 1000rpm is too low for IP pressure. I had the wrong number. I have set the pressure to 75 at 1000rpm.