Author Topic: New to the 1.6TD  (Read 6589 times)

March 08, 2009, 08:39:53 am

Richmond69er

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« on: March 08, 2009, 08:39:53 am »
Hey everyone
im new to these forums but not really new to diesels... ive only ever owned dodge trucks with cummins motors in em...

but i recently just got myself a '89 jetta GL diesel its got a 1.6td in it...
it has 320k on it and i didnt know the history of the motor and i could see that oil was mixing in with coolant... so i did the timing belt, waterpump, headgasket, injectors, and glo plugs. the car runs perfect, and starts easy even on cold mornings.

now my question is what kind of numbers is this motor putting out stock?
and what kind of modifications would i have to do to get maybe 150-170hp out of this motor and still have it be a reliable daily driver?

are there kits out there like ones for the TDI for power upgrades?

Cheers,
Justin.

Reply #1March 08, 2009, 08:59:40 am

the caveman

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« Reply #1 on: March 08, 2009, 08:59:40 am »
Welcome and start reading. I like to think in terms of torque for diesels but there are others on here who will answer your hp questions. Lots of easy cheap mods can be done with large gains without too much loss of economy. A bit of tinkering with the IP and adding an intercooler are the obvious things.
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1970 Type 3 fastback
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1989 Fox
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Reply #2March 08, 2009, 10:00:20 am

subsonic

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« Reply #2 on: March 08, 2009, 10:00:20 am »
To get 150-170 will take a bit of work.  Stock numbers were around 70hp.  SO you are looking at about 100% increase.  It can be done. Stock exhaust will need to go. Bigger DP and at least 2-2.5" all the way to the end.  Either straight pipe or a good turbo muffler. Intake will need to be modified for better/ balanced flow. FMIC or water injection. Good cold air intake.  Pump adjustments or rebuild Covered in the FAQ section. There are some very good pump builders on the forum, tintin-giles etc.  Full up guage set so you dont melt anything.  EGT and boost minimum. With that many miles you will want to think about the bottom end being redone if you are going to be pushing big numbers like that.  IM shaft bearings.  Make sure everything is up to speed on the head, valve guides, seats etc.  Porting works well.  Clean up the exhaust side of the head.  Open up the intake side.  Gasket match.  Upgrade to 1.9 HG.  Think about head studs.  EGR delete, you will need to increase boost levels up into the 20+psi range. How is the turbo? Still tight?  Once you get your power you need to put to the road.  Lightened 210mm flywheel and clutch setup, Uprated 16V pressure plate.   What tranny does your car have?  Sounds like you are pretty handy if you already did the work you mentioned.  Most of this is just hands on.  No chips or electronic stuff.  Good old fashioned hot rodding. Just more fuel, more boost, more flow.   It really depends on how deep you want to go into the engine and your wallet.  You will find tons of good info on this forum.  I would suggest about a month of solid reading, question asking, research and planning.  It is very easy to get the bug and end up WAY WAY over budget.
Good luck,
Jim
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #3March 08, 2009, 11:04:06 am

MJF

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« Reply #3 on: March 08, 2009, 11:04:06 am »
Boost doesn´t make power. With right turbo, 20-25psi is plenty for 150hp.
'74 VW Scirocco TD
'86 Audi 80q 1,9TDic
'01 Audi A6q 2,5TDI

Reply #4March 08, 2009, 11:55:42 am

subsonic

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« Reply #4 on: March 08, 2009, 11:55:42 am »
True, but at what rpm range?
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #5March 08, 2009, 11:59:06 am

Richmond69er

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« Reply #5 on: March 08, 2009, 11:59:06 am »
Quote from: "subsonic"
To get 150-170 will take a bit of work.  Stock numbers were around 70hp.  SO you are looking at about 100% increase.  It can be done. Stock exhaust will need to go. Bigger DP and at least 2-2.5" all the way to the end.  Either straight pipe or a good turbo muffler. Intake will need to be modified for better/ balanced flow. FMIC or water injection. Good cold air intake.  Pump adjustments or rebuild Covered in the FAQ section. There are some very good pump builders on the forum, tintin-giles etc.  Full up guage set so you dont melt anything.  EGT and boost minimum. With that many miles you will want to think about the bottom end being redone if you are going to be pushing big numbers like that.  IM shaft bearings.  Make sure everything is up to speed on the head, valve guides, seats etc.  Porting works well.  Clean up the exhaust side of the head.  Open up the intake side.  Gasket match.  Upgrade to 1.9 HG.  Think about head studs.  EGR delete, you will need to increase boost levels up into the 20+psi range. How is the turbo? Still tight?  Once you get your power you need to put to the road.  Lightened 210mm flywheel and clutch setup, Uprated 16V pressure plate.   What tranny does your car have?  Sounds like you are pretty handy if you already did the work you mentioned.  Most of this is just hands on.  No chips or electronic stuff.  Good old fashioned hot rodding. Just more fuel, more boost, more flow.   It really depends on how deep you want to go into the engine and your wallet.  You will find tons of good info on this forum.  I would suggest about a month of solid reading, question asking, research and planning.  It is very easy to get the bug and end up WAY WAY over budget.
Good luck,
Jim


The reason i want to have more power is basically to keep up with stock VR's that are around this area... alot of people in the mk2 platform are going with vr6 swaps and instead of jumping on the bandwagon i want to have a diesel that will keep up (for the most part) that being said....

The stock exhaust is going to be gutted out for sure. i will be getting a 2.5" straight pipe... how is it for noise? i might be inclined to put a performance magnaflow muffler on... but 2.5" is a definite mod in the works.

as for intake modifications... ill have to look around on this site some more... but whats the easiest most common modification? custom fabbed up piping with a k&n cone on the end? as for a FMIC is there a kit thats available with all necessary piping to plumb it in or am i going to have to source out a fmic and have appropriate piping fabbed up?

as for gauges i already have a set of gauges waiting to be installed EGT/Boost/Oil pressure. so im set in that department for now.

The turbo is still tight from what i can tell. runs awesome still. but is there a different turbo that would be an upgrade for the stock one? id like it to pull hard all the way up and spool up pretty quick? what would you recommend i start looking for?

as for a pump... theres a shop called new west diesel here in the lower mainland BC... anyone ever get work done from them? im not really into the shipping idea to giles in the east... mainly cause ive never dealt with shipping before...

its got a 5spd tranny right now... how do i check what model it is?
210mm lightened flywheel and pressure plate can be done after im finished with the motor work...

as of right now i dont have a budget in mind for this project. but what kind of cost ballpark am i looking at here for parts? alot of the wrenching i can do myself....

and thanks everyone for the input, this is a great forum. these are my first posts haha im already excited!

a little something....
ive owned the car for a few weeks now and since i got it, it had a blue interior complete from dash to seats to carpet... ive already gutted the entire thing and am starting to put "fatmat" on the floors, roof,trunk, and doors. i want to get rid of some of the road noise... im replacing it with a complete trophy recaro interior with black GLI headliner... so my interior is going to be finished pretty soon. the motor is up now for the chopping block...

Cheers,
Justin

Reply #6March 08, 2009, 12:28:56 pm

burn_your_money

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« Reply #6 on: March 08, 2009, 12:28:56 pm »
These should answer most questions

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=645

http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=4391

http://vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=579

The first link is for your motor but the other 2 are a good read anyways
Tyler

Reply #7March 08, 2009, 03:49:46 pm

TurboJ

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« Reply #7 on: March 08, 2009, 03:49:46 pm »
Make sure you have good airflow, right from the intake, to the exhaust.
A well-flowing intercooler, a good intake manifold, a well ported head, a short and smooth exhaust manifold and the right turbo together with a full 2.5 - 3 inch exhaust will be a sound foundation.
Bottom line:  the better the air flows, the safer it is to run the high horsepower.

I would recommend using a modern turbo, but not necesserily a VNT  - they can be a problem for your con rods.
Turbo sizing - look for a 40 / 45 mm unit or thereabouts for your power level. A good modern turbo will give equal or better performance to a K24 with less stress on the engine due to better efficiency and lower air temperature.

Make sure you have your pump built by someone who knows his stuff.
OR, use a suitable OEM pump which already has a bigger plunger head (not for beginners, this)

You will probably need head studs - ARP will do fine.
1.9 AAZ 3-layer head gasket will be a very good investment.

With 170 hp, your clutch and gearbox will be at risk. No question your stock clutch won't cut it, but probably neither will your stock transmission.
Look for a Passat 35i gearbox and a strenghtened G60 clutch kit.
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Reply #8March 08, 2009, 08:49:47 pm

subsonic

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« Reply #8 on: March 08, 2009, 08:49:47 pm »
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power.  A stock rebuild will be just that.  You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section.  That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm.  I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done.  That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders.  It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL.  It's all custom work.  It's also about 800-1000 bucks.  Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #9March 08, 2009, 10:39:41 pm

Rabbit TD

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« Reply #9 on: March 08, 2009, 10:39:41 pm »
You mentioned you might put a Magnaflow muffler on when you start tinkering.  I just put a new basicly stock rebuilt 1.6 T/D in my Rabbit and it's old exhaust had to go.  I used the stock downpipe from the Jetta the engine came out of and finished it up with 2 in. pipe the rest of the way as I think it will be fine for what i'm trying to accomplish but I also had to have a pipe bent over the axel which is another reason I stayed 2 in to have more clearance there. The bottom line is I had to get a muffler and since I didn't want it riduculously loud I wanted a performance muffler that wasn't just a cheap glasspack so I got a Magnaflow with the 2 in. center inlet and outlet trying to keep the little beast as stock looking and not real loud,I figured it would be louder than the stock system at least.  This is basicly just a straight through type oval shape { 5x9x18} but I was kind of dissapointed when I started it.  It doesn't have any sound at all and it's a straight through, I just wanted a purr at least but it doesn't even do that, more of a buzz Ha Ha.

Reply #10March 08, 2009, 10:49:50 pm

Richmond69er

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« Reply #10 on: March 08, 2009, 10:49:50 pm »
Quote from: "subsonic"
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power.  A stock rebuild will be just that.  You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section.  That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm.  I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done.  That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders.  It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL.  It's all custom work.  It's also about 800-1000 bucks.  Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.


Yeah, ive been reading non stop for the day pretty much and of all shops that tune pumps everyone seems to swear by giles... so i did just that and messaged him. i will end up going with a giles built super pump... that being the biggest expense in this build...

this evening i added an order to my buddies large order of SS from Ace metals down in Cali... even with the dollar being weak it still worked out to be cheaper. my friend swears by him said we should have it all here by Friday this week. going to be fabbing up a turbo back system.

thanks for the input on the magnaflow muffler... im going to run it as a straight 2.5'' at first no muffler....if it gets loud or drone i can always hack it up and throw in a muffler so thats no big deal.

as of right now i put a cap on the amount of money im willing to spend on engine parts/performance at around the 3k mark.
a grand is already used for the pump....


i cant wait to see the look on the vr guys....

thanks for all the info so far! this site has alot of knowledge

Reply #11March 08, 2009, 11:15:50 pm

Rabbit TD

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« Reply #11 on: March 08, 2009, 11:15:50 pm »
Quote from: "Richmond69er"
Quote from: "subsonic"
Your Injection Pump will be the heart of all your power.  A stock rebuild will be just that.  You can always adjust it from there as described in the FAQ section.  That will get you some pretty good fueling advances to allow for more boost / higher rpm.  I dont think it will get you to 150hp but it will move you a good bit past stock. The next jump is to have a performance rebuild of your pump done.  That is where you really need to do your research and check out some of the better pump builders.  It's like a skill level jump from college football up to the NFL.  It's all custom work.  It's also about 800-1000 bucks.  Not cheap.
I think to do everything right for a reliable 150 daily driving hp will run you 1500 to 3000. Soup to nuts. Engine, turbo, tranny, exhaust etc...
You should have no problem hanging with the vr6 class unless they are all decked out high hp units.


If you do go with a Magnaflow check out Magnaflowplanet, they are the cheapest I've found for them, have a lot more sizes and configurations and have free shipping.  The damn thing is too quiet though even though it's a straight through.  It will probably get louder though after those little perforations start filling up with soot. You wouldn't believe all the *** in one of these things inside the case if you cut one open after it's been on there a while.

Yeah, ive been reading non stop for the day pretty much and of all shops that tune pumps everyone seems to swear by giles... so i did just that and messaged him. i will end up going with a giles built super pump... that being the biggest expense in this build...

this evening i added an order to my buddies large order of SS from Ace metals down in Cali... even with the dollar being weak it still worked out to be cheaper. my friend swears by him said we should have it all here by Friday this week. going to be fabbing up a turbo back system.

thanks for the input on the magnaflow muffler... im going to run it as a straight 2.5'' at first no muffler....if it gets loud or drone i can always hack it up and throw in a muffler so thats no big deal.

as of right now i put a cap on the amount of money im willing to spend on engine parts/performance at around the 3k mark.
a grand is already used for the pump....


i cant wait to see the look on the vr guys....

thanks for all the info so far! this site has alot of knowledge

Reply #12March 09, 2009, 12:35:00 am

Richmond69er

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« Reply #12 on: March 09, 2009, 12:35:00 am »
RabbitTD....

those perforations in the muffler.....
i have a magnaflow turboback installed on my truck and the muffler can be turned around (one way the exhaust flows straight through over the perforations and the other way  flows through but catches on all the perforations in the muffler)

maybe check that out and see if ur muffler is like that or not...

Reply #13March 09, 2009, 05:58:31 am

subsonic

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« Reply #13 on: March 09, 2009, 05:58:31 am »
Before you start fabbing up an exhaust, make sure you have your turbo selection set.  It is going to need to clear what ever intake system you choose to go with.  A volvo 24D N/A intake can be cut and modded to make a very nice long runer intake.  The k24 or t3 should work for you but will be maxed out. You could hybrid them by going k24/26 or a bigger compressor on the t3.  I did some checking and the compressor and housing of my merc t3 turbo bolted right up to the vw t3. If you go with a turbo that is not specific to the 1.6td you will need to make sure it will work with the exhaust manifold. A standard t3 will not bolt up.   The other option is to sell your turbo and use the funds to help purchase something more modern.  The down pipe is going to be the hardest piece to make correctly.  It is a tight fit near the shifter linkage.  2 1/2" will be easier than 3".  You will need a good turbo flex joint on it.  You may also want to put some form of heat blocker on the exhaust manifold, turbine housing, and downpipe.  Thats an extra that is not needed but will certainly help spool time and keep your engine bay/ intake cooler.
2009 Jetta TDI Loyal edition, 6-spd. 16V 2.0CR


1985 VW Golf 5-spd, 4-door, 1.6NA  Bought from orig. owner in Savannah with 42,000 miles.
"Making the jump NA to TD" slow but sure.

1980 VW Rabbit LS 5-spd, 4-door 1.6NA almost 450,000miles  RIP

Reply #14March 09, 2009, 06:59:32 am

arb

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« Reply #14 on: March 09, 2009, 06:59:32 am »
One mod not often talked about that will give you about 50 hp more w/o going crazy on the boost is propane injection. It will also allow you to burn more of the diesel fuel you inject...  For example:


http://www.dieselperformanceproducts.com/testimonials.html
http://www.poweredbypropane.net/products-pricing-order-online/diesel-injection-kits/turbo-compensated-diesel-propane-injection-kit.html?vmcchk=1