Need a little help...leaky IP...tried ATF...now no start.

[dubbinchris]

The subject heading pretty much sums it up.  I discovered a leaking IP last week and after lots of reading on this site decided to try the ATF method.  I basically drill a hole in the cap of a quart of ATF to put a brass barb on it.  The I disconnected the fuel line from the filter housing and connected it to the ATF bottle.  Had the GF hold the bottle upside down while I put a hole in the bottom of the bottle to let air in while the pump sucked it in, and started the engine.  I let it run until the bottle was almost empty but didn't let it suck air. I then repeated with a second bottle.  After letting that run almost out I reconnected the fuel line and then parked the car.  That was last night......

Now tonight I cannot get the car to restart.  I cracked one of the lines at the injector and cranked for a second and out came ATF, so at least I know the IP isn't trying to start the motor with air.

Anyway I didn't try very long...just many cycles of the glow plugs and a fair amount of cranking each time but to no avail.

I'm open to suggestions.

[the caveman]

Possibly the ATF doesn't have enough calorific value to let the motor fire up cold,same as veg oil. I would open all the injection lines, crank out all that ATF until diesel shows up. Re-tighten them, crank some more till the injectors fill and it should go.

[dubbinchris]

Hmmm...interesting idea. I may try that tomorrow sometime.

I wonder what others have done who have tried this ATF trick?

Can anyone else chime in?

[jtanguay]

it can take a considerable amount of time to re-prime the system...  how many seconds of cranking did you give it before calling it quits?

[dubbinchris]

I have filled a pump with ATF to prime and start it and it worked fine.  Check for glow plug current at the buss bar.

Andrew

It didn't have any trouble starting before the ATF trick so I suspect the plugs are good.

it can take a considerable amount of time to re-prime the system...  how many seconds of cranking did you give it before calling it quits?

I tried about 5 or 6 times, cranking 6-8 seconds each try before letting the starter rest.

I made a point to not let the pump suck any air. Do you think just diconnecting the fuel line for a minute before hooking it to ATF and then back would really un-prime the pump?

[jtanguay]

I have filled a pump with ATF to prime and start it and it worked fine.  Check for glow plug current at the buss bar.

Andrew

It didn't have any trouble starting before the ATF trick so I suspect the plugs are good.

glowplugs can go at anytime, without notice.  i wouldn't rule them out just yet...

[dubbinchris]

glowplugs can go at anytime, without notice.  i wouldn't rule them out just yet...

Hmmm...well that would be a PITA!  The orig owner had some new plugs that he left in the glove box for me.  They are some random brand that's I've not heard of.

What's the best way to test GP current?  Unhook from buss bar and put digital ammeter in between supply wire and bar?  What should the current be?  I still dont think this is it...but like above I guess I shouldn't totally rule it out.

[jtanguay]

I have filled a pump with ATF to prime and start it and it worked fine.  Check for glow plug current at the buss bar.

Andrew

It didn't have any trouble starting before the ATF trick so I suspect the plugs are good.

it can take a considerable amount of time to re-prime the system...  how many seconds of cranking did you give it before calling it quits?

I tried about 5 or 6 times, cranking 6-8 seconds each try before letting the starter rest.

I made a point to not let the pump suck any air. Do you think just diconnecting the fuel line for a minute before hooking it to ATF and then back would really un-prime the pump?

well i replaced the long fuel return line from the no.4 injector back to the pump.  it took the car about 20-30 seconds of cranking to start up.  not even a sputter before (problem could have been compounded by bad GP's or the fuel filter, etc though...)

[dubbinchris]

well i replaced the long fuel return line from the no.4 injector back to the pump.  it took the car about 20-30 seconds of cranking to start up.  not even a sputter before (problem could have been compounded by bad GP's or the fuel filter, etc though...)

Well I suppose I didn't get it enough time.  Like I said before I cracked one line to see ATF coming out.  Maybe I need to try a combination of things.  Crack all the lines....double check that the filter is full of diesel still as well the the line from filter to pump....attempt to check glow plugs.  I guess I should have left it in the garage over night where I could have at least plugged in the torpedo heater and give it a head start.

[Smokey Eddy]

when i started mine up from sitting dormant for months i had all the hard lines loose on the injectors with lots of paper towel to catch all the diesel.

I just kept turning it (with the GP's out) till diesel came out of every injector's line. making the 155 bar in each injector puts a fair amount of draw on the starter so by leaving them all cracked open it sped up the process a bit and with less wear to boot. (the glow plugs being out also helped with the compression issue. It hisses something terrible though so be-aware.)

[dieselweasel]

Possibly the ATF doesn't have enough calorific value to let the motor fire up cold,same as veg oil. I would open all the injection lines, crank out all that ATF until diesel shows up. Re-tighten them, crank some more till the injectors fill and it should go.

I suspect that is the issue.  ATF probably will not vapourize readily enough to allow the engine to start in the cold.  I would at least plug in the block heater (if equipped) and re-try.  Of course it could be a glow plug circuit problem as well, just seems more likely that the problem is due to the ATF.

[burn_your_money]

Possibly the ATF doesn't have enough calorific value to let the motor fire up cold,same as veg oil.

That was my first thought as well. How cold is it there?

I'd crank it for longer then 6-8 seconds. A full 20 at least. The hardest thing a starter has to do is get the motor turning. Once it's turning at cranking speed, the starter only has to maintain it, not increase it.

Are you getting smoke out the tailpipe when you are cranking?

[the caveman]

glowplugs can go at anytime, without notice.  i wouldn't rule them out just yet...

Hmmm...well that would be a PITA!  The orig owner had some new plugs that he left in the glove box for me.  They are some random brand that's I've not heard of.

What's the best way to test GP current?  Unhook from buss bar and put digital ammeter in between supply wire and bar?  What should the current be?  I still dont think this is it...but like above I guess I shouldn't totally rule it out.

Unless you have a meter with a BIG fuse and the capability to handle 70 amps forget it. Use a clamp-on ammeter or adaptor to check them while connected.
I think you just didn't crank long enough.

[dubbinchris]

Well good news and bad news.

Good news is that I got it to start....bad news is the pump still leaks from the bottom somewhere.

I pulled all the fuel return lines off the injectors to help purge the ATF.  I then filled an empty quart oil container with diesel.  Using my earlier made brass-barb-in-an-oil-bottle-cap tool thingy I gravity fed diesel directly into the IP.  I wanted to make sure it was getting fuel just in case maybe the fuel filter and what not had lost it's prime.  I then cranked and cranked and cranked in 15-20 second bursts all the while having jumper cables hooked to another running VW.

While recharging between bursts I wasn't able to check the current at the bussbar but did manage to check the voltage.  It was about 10.5 volts at the first glow plug.  I unhooked the wire into the first plug to measure voltage with no plugs hooked up and it was a little over 13 iirc.

Anyway after lots of cranking it fired and of course was blowing ATF everywhere out of the fuel return nipple going into the IP.  I only let it run for a few seconds before shutting it down and reconnecting all the return lines.

Started it back up letting it run for about a minute on the quart of diesel hanging from the hood.  When the bottle started collapsing I shut the motor down and refilled the quart container with diesel and restarted.  Once running again I quickly pulled the fuel line from the bottle and re-connected to the filter on the firewall and prayed that I would keep running.  Well I was in luck, the IP didn't seem to suck any air and I let it run for about 15 min.

Hooray!!!!  Now I just need to address the leaky IP  :cry:

Thanks for all the help and suggestions.

BTW any thoughts on my glowplug voltage or is it more tell tale to have only one hooked up at a time to test voltage and thus determine if there are any faulty plugs?

[the caveman]

The only thing that having 12v going to the GPs is telling you is that the system is functioning properly. If you disconnect the buss bar from the #3&4 you can test most of them. With them disconnected, take a test light and connect one end to the positive of the battery. Take the other end of the light and touch the end of the GP where the wire connects to. If the GP is good, it will light the test lamp-it has continuity . If no then you can be 100% sure it is bad. Test #3 & 4 and then if you do the same thing at the buss bar then you will know if at least one of the others is good or not. Using the test lamp is not an absolute but better than nothing and easier than removing them.