Author Topic: Ultimate Turbocharger Quest  (Read 5914 times)

May 30, 2005, 11:25:53 pm

92A2VWJTD

  • Guest
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« on: May 30, 2005, 11:25:53 pm »
What would be considered the ultimate turbo upgrade for an MF engine that's intended to run no more than 20psi boost, with a quality high flow intercooler, 3" exhaust and DP, that retains quick spool up characteristics? The VNT that Jake's working out certainly seems appealing, all be it not a direct bolt on. Are there any ball-bearing Garrett GT units that would work with the 1.6 diesel's power curves and diesel specific needs? With a modest expectation of horsepower gain, it would seem that an ultra efficient ball-bearing unit would spool quickly and return large HP gains in comparison to the stock Garrett on my ride, no? Searches on the matter haven't revealed too many proven turbo upgrades for the MF, aside from that explored here on the forums. Any thoughts?

Reply #1May 31, 2005, 01:20:16 am

vwmike

  • Authorized Vendor
  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1158
Re: Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #1 on: May 31, 2005, 01:20:16 am »
Quote from: "92A2VWJTD"
What would be considered the ultimate turbo upgrade for an MF engine that's intended to run no more than 20psi boost, with a quality high flow intercooler, 3" exhaust and DP, that retains quick spool up characteristics? The VNT that Jake's working out certainly seems appealing, all be it not a direct bolt on. Are there any ball-bearing Garrett GT units that would work with the 1.6 diesel's power curves and diesel specific needs? With a modest expectation of horsepower gain, it would seem that an ultra efficient ball-bearing unit would spool quickly and return large HP gains in comparison to the stock Garrett on my ride, no? Searches on the matter haven't revealed too many proven turbo upgrades for the MF, aside from that explored here on the forums. Any thoughts?


The stock turbo is efficient up to about 23 psi.

Reply #2May 31, 2005, 05:11:16 am

Staley

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 96
    • http://www.bartuning.com
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #2 on: May 31, 2005, 05:11:16 am »
a GT-25 would work
Houston's APR Distributor
www.bartuning.com

Reply #3May 31, 2005, 09:10:18 am

TDIMeister

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 284
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #3 on: May 31, 2005, 09:10:18 am »
For a 1.6, a GT15 would be more turbo than you would EVER realistically need.

It is a very efficient unit for its size, very fast spooling, and it can sustain over 20 PSI boost to 5000 RPM on a larger displacement 1.9L TDI.

Trust me, you need nothing more on a 1.6.

Reply #4May 31, 2005, 03:55:43 pm

autobahn

  • Guest
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #4 on: May 31, 2005, 03:55:43 pm »
sorry to kinda jack this but what are the thoughts for a GT-25R on a 1.9L?
am i only gonna be able to SAY i have a ball bearing turbo or will i actually feel a difference?

Reply #5May 31, 2005, 09:34:20 pm

TDIMeister

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 284
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2005, 09:34:20 pm »


Efficiency island @ PR=2.0 (14.7 PSI) and 73% peak efficiency and ~20 lbs/min of air flow.  MEH.  Yawn. :roll:

By comparison, a smaller GT20:


Peak efficiency of 79%, PR 2.5 (22 boost) and similar air flow rates within the efficiency island.

Ball-bearing turbos are over-rated.

Reply #6May 31, 2005, 09:35:51 pm

DVST8R

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 535
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2005, 09:35:51 pm »
Quote from: "TDIMeister"
For a 1.6, a GT15 would be more turbo than you would EVER realistically need.

It is a very efficient unit for its size, very fast spooling, and it can sustain over 20 PSI boost to 5000 RPM on a larger displacement 1.9L TDI.

Trust me, you need nothing more on a 1.6.


Wow I am really unrealistic. I was thinking a GT15 compounded with like a GT28R disco patato would be fun.  :P , heck I am putting together a stock kkk and a holset hx35.  :twisted: I guess it did say 20psi though :wink:
The Brett of the board...



The Dark Side of Beauty.[/i]

Reply #7May 31, 2005, 10:59:48 pm

Staley

  • Junior

  • Offline
  • **

  • 96
    • http://www.bartuning.com
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #7 on: May 31, 2005, 10:59:48 pm »
Here is a compressor map of the T3 Super60 that I am installing on my 1.9L



I figure 20 psi is 2.36 PR at 21 CAF.
What do you guys think?
Houston's APR Distributor
www.bartuning.com

Reply #8May 31, 2005, 11:28:27 pm

fspGTD

  • Veteran

  • Offline
  • ***

  • 1529
    • http://home.comcast.net/~vwgtd
Ultimate Turbocharger Quest
« Reply #8 on: May 31, 2005, 11:28:27 pm »
For comparison, here is a compressor map for the stock 1.6lTD, including the plotted line of the 1.6lTD engine's air flow (probably going up to about 5k RPM as plotted):


And for the TDI's VNT-15:


The stock 1.6lTD turbo mustered a whopping 70% peak efficiency!  :shock:  Comparing this to the upper 70's percent efficiency of the newer units, they really do make newer turbos that are more efficient don't they!

FWIW, based on just a quick calculation done in my head, it looks like the 1.6 liter engine is a good match for the efficiency area of the VNT-15 compressor over a range of boost levels.

PS - remember to convert between kg/s, kg/m, and lb/m before comparing different maps as needed.  (At least all the conversion factors you'll need to know are: 60 seconds in a minute, and 1 kg = 2.2 lbs.  :wink:)

Staley: at first I thought your compressor might not be sized correctly.  But then thinking it through some more, I think it will give you an opportunity for great high-RPM performance! :P At stock engine tune, it will work, but may not be an optimal application as it doesn't look like you're hitting the peak efficiency island.  I ran my own numbers to check your work: Assuming you're going to run similar RPM and VE as a stock 1.6lTD, but have an extra .3 liters displacement of your 1.9l, that engine would see .12 @ kg/s at 1.65 bar at redline.  Which is equivalent to about 16 lb/min at that pressure at redline.  Looking at your compressor map, this is in the efficiency plateau, although towards the left side (so lower RPMs at that boost will not see as efficient of compressor operation.)  Extrapolating the curve up to a higher boost to see where it falls, let's try 2.2 pressure ratio (about 18 psi).  At that pressure assuming you have a good intercooler and assuming engine volumetric efficiency stays the same, you would flow 2.2/1.65*16 = about 21 lbs/min.  You can see this is just touching maybe, or just off to the left of the efficiency island for that compressor.  This generally seems to be the trend.  A little bit too much flow capacity for ideal IMO but, headwork, cams, wind up that revv limiter, anything to make the engine flow more up to about 20%, will result in using the elusive peak efficiency plateau of that turbo.  Bumping the revv limiter by about 1000RPM would seem to do the trick!

But another way you can look at it is, the 1.6lTD compressor never gets significantly more efficient than 70%.  How big of a plateau on that compressor does the 68-70% plot cover?  :P  If you find you are doing the bulk of your high-boost work in that area, you're doing at least as good as a 1.6lTD in compressor efficiency.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits