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Need Help to Plan 1.5 na-1.6 td upgrade (Limited Resources)
by
Familydiesel
on 10 Jun, 2008 15:34
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I have a 1980 rabbit diesel pickup I just bought a few weeks ago. It is using antifreeze (can smell it out the exhaust) several injectors (which were supposed to have been rebuilt) leak air (spray starting fluid at the surface of the injection and head junction, and 3 out of 4 make the engine speed up), and the injection pump leaks. The former owner said the head had been rebuilt recently, which appears to be true, but the antifreeze, internal consumption problem persists. Therefore, rather than rebuild this smaller motor which seems to get inferior mileage compared to the 1.6 na, I am considering rebuilding a 1981 n/a engine I own. Here are my questions. Ultimately I want to build a 1.6 turbo. But for now, I am thinkign of rebuilding the 1.6 na (actually, this is all I can afford now). What parts do I need to install now to be able to be ready for a turbo later? Are the 1.6 na and turbo heads identical except for the possible sodium filled valves? Can I get by with turbo pistons and rings, and the na head? Will I need special injectors when I add a turbo? What is the difference between the 1.5 and 1.6 injection pumps. I heard the 1.5's were run-a-ways? Are the heads 1.5 (373) and 1.6 (373B) the same?
Do any of you who have been through this have any sage counsel for me that will help me from spending extra money in the long run and extra time? I am open to your experience and counsel. It would be nice to buy a good and complete used turbo engine now, but finding them for under $1200 is hard to come by. Any suggestions here? I live in central WA state. I have read many threads and have gotten some pieces of information, but need help with the big picture. Thanks
Greg
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#1
by
rabbitpower
on 11 Jun, 2008 03:14
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The 1.5 engine, if maintained properly is a fine engine. It's weaknesses are that the oil return is smaller in the block and head and the engine uses the smaller 11mm non stretch type bolts.
The 1.5 and 1.6 heads are similar save for the previously mentioned oil return hole size. Your 81 NA probably has the 11mm head bolts too but it will have a larger oil return.
I was going to turbo charge mine however a friend of mine put a Calloway kit on his NA engine and melted one of the pistons. I am not sure what he did wrong but I know there was alot of money down the drain. I decided to just find a true TD engine and start there. Probably not what you want to hear ( I didn't either). The turbo head is suposedly made of a tougher alloy, has sodium filled resistal coated valves. My thinking that if I was going to spend money on an engine I would let Vw cover the engineering by buying a true turbo.
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#2
by
blkboostedtruck
on 11 Jun, 2008 03:48
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#3
by
Familydiesel
on 11 Jun, 2008 11:34
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Thanks guys for the comments. I looked into the 1.6 turbo engine mentioned and can't afford to put 1500 (with shipping) into a motor that still needs some work on the motor before it is reliable and strong. But thanks for offering it.
Can I use my 1.6 na injection pump with a turbo, just turn it up some? What is the main difference between pumps? Can the 1.6 na be modified to work with the turbo. I've noticed in pictures that the 1.6 turbo injection pump has a diaphram on top of it or something. What is this for? Do I need this?
It sounds like if I rebuild the 1.6 na and modify it for a turbo, I will need turbo pistons, sodium filled valves, an oil cooler; what else?
Do I need to add higher pressure injecctors?
Is the down pipe the same as na or does that need to be changed also?
I hadn't made up my mind on the change when I ran across a complete 1.6 turbo engine locally, that just needed a cam. I didn't know if the cam was special and it sold or $800 before I decided.
I think I am going to try to build a motor (shopping around for the best pricing) which will be turbo compatable later. Do any of you have advice on places to buy good quality engine parts for the lowest price? I live in WA state, and shipping is somewhat of an issue, but can work with it. I would appreiate any leads.
Thanks,
Greg
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#4
by
janb
on 12 Jun, 2008 00:11
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rebuilding anything is not cheap, and not really worth doing unless you are keeping it + you seem interested in a TD, so don't even bother with building an NA and later 'upgrading'.
Maybe... your head rebuild was not installed or torqued correctly, could be a simple fix (correctly done), maybe it is warped. I'd first look for a "used 1.6, for under $500, or re-do your head gasket, and check if warped or machined too coarse (needs to be VERY smooth for high diesel compression ratio) . You can get heads for ~ $150 used. Rebuilding whole engine just gets REALLY spendy, I'm usually able to salvage these things to get by for a few yrs while finding a TD.
I get my heads done in Portland here (or do them myself when getting by cheap, on econo motor)
http://www.aluminumheads.com/ They are very good with VW D
I get my parts at Halsey Import in Portland, A very affordable source, The TDI club had buying privileges for discounts, not sure if that is still the case. I have a dealer acct there. 1-800-792-0081
I actually liked my 1.5 in my pickup, and it got better mileage than 1.6. I now have a 1.9 in my current VW pickup.
keep your eyes open for used TD's, I went and got one in Spokane for $500. I had one shipped from Florida for less. You need to really dig (crazedlist.org will help)
There is a guy in South central WA with over 100 VW diesels sitting in his 'corral', so there are plenty around. He is on the hunt for TD's and wants some of mine. I'm having a big VW-D sale in a few weeks, but not gonna give up my TD's, yet... I also don't have any spare 12mm 1.6s till I get stuff fixed up. I need to sell ~ 8 VW-D cars (6 are 'projects' / repairs) and probably ~ 6 complete engines in various unknown shape. I'm trying to decide how many others to crush with current price of steel !! But I hate to crush diesels :oops:
You will need a TD Inj pump, and different downpipe AND aircleaner, AND oil pan ... and hoses (air and oil and water)... just find a complete TD, it will be much cheaper and save a lot of headache and time lost. Cams are the same, very cheap.... seldom bad.
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#5
by
Familydiesel
on 12 Jun, 2008 15:37
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Janb thanks for the tips. I had the same aluminum head rebuilder build my 1.6 rabbit head. They did quality work. Thanks for names and leads. I did get my caddy from Craigs list in Portland. Its a nice looking truck with nice interior, but am needing to replace the steering rack, whole tierod assemblies and get new struts. Now I need a new engine. I knew the engine had some issue, but didn't have any idea it was burning antifreeze since it still had biodiesel in it when I bought it and I wasn't used to that smell.
Well, I am still torn because I still need a rebuilt motor. I can get a clean intake manifild, exhuast manifold, turbo and the hoses, oil lines, and air box for $500. The parts are really clean and supposed to have only 60,000 miles on them. But this seems to defy your counsel to buy a whole engine. Another guy has two turbo blocks, but they both need major rebuilds and the injection pump needs rebuilt. I have not been able to locat a td for less than $800 (in Spokane) and all the motors I find seem to need major work. Wow, welcome to the world of vw trubo diesel mania.
My experience with the 1.5 both in my current caddy and one I had in a dasher sedan was low mileage. Both got between 38-40 mpg. The 1.6 I had in a 81 Rabbit consistently got 44 and sometimes above on the highway.
I didn't mention that the 1.5 was overheated. The head was supposed to have been rebuilt, but like you said, the head may not have been rebuild well. The valves really clatter, the injectors leak pressure from the cylinder and I am getting antifreeze in the cylinder(s). So, it may be that the head rebuilder and/or mechanic didn't really know what they were doing. The previous owner said his mechanic said the cylinders were scored and would probably burn oil. So, it seems it needs a rebuild either way I go. I have been leaning toward a 1.6 because I think I will get better mileage like my 1.6 Rabbit, and because I will have a little more power to run around on the freeway, which I need to do often. However, it sounds like some of you have had better mileage with the 1.5. Hmmm, I don't know what to think.
I have been thinking turbo since I will keep this truck for a long long time and I may be using it to haul some things around.
By the way, what kind of mileage are some of you getting with the 1.6 turbos and/or the 1.6, 1.5s in your pickups? Is this mileage all around or highway? Do you drive like old men to get the mileag or the speed limit?
Do any of you have a good used turbo motor for sale? I could come and pick it up if it is within 200 mi from Yakima WA. Otherwise, I could pay shipping, but that is what prevented me from buying another one who offered to sell his engine.
Thanks,
Greg
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#6
by
janb
on 13 Jun, 2008 00:57
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I would buy a used 1.6 till I found a TD that I could afford to rebuild 100%
as previously mentioned I'm not getting rid of my TD's yet, and like all VW-D folks that have spent long hours collecting and attending auctions... mine are worth way too much to ever break even on for time spent, so you just have to dig and pay the dues. Been laid off for 3 yrs so I'm not in bargain mode as I have to eat... so was just offering ideas and pricing benchmarks as to what I've found. I got my last donor TD jetta A2 for $300, but had to drive 5 hrs (one way) to tow it home. Won't be doing that again,,,
my typical mileage (I've had over 20 VW-D's)
1.5 = 48-50 mpg (one german rabbit 1.5 w/4spd got 60 mpg ALL the time !)
1.6 - 46-48 mpg
1.6td = 44-46 mpg (A1 or A2)
1.9 = 44-46 mpg
1.9td 42 - 44 mpg
1.9 TDI 48 mpg in one and 52 mpg in the other
IDI's get driven very hard (like 75 mph in 1.5's as they rev higher)
I get best mileage driving them like I'm mad at them (same as older Detroit Diesels in my semis)
TDI's get better mileage at lower RPM
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#7
by
Familydiesel
on 13 Jun, 2008 12:35
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Jand, thanks again for the info. You know, the more I think about it, I think I will look into the leak problem on the 1.5 and see if I can get it to run for a while. I appreciate your counsel. I get in a mode to make it nice right away. Your counsel to pay the dues is well heeded.
I don't know if you are interested, but will post when I find out what is causing the leak. Now that I think about it, the oil is pretty clean and it doesn't use any, so it might just be a head or gasket issue.
He lbkboostedtruck, thanks for your input also. Both of you have helped me to be more patient and think through fixing the 1.5 until I can get a true turbo together. Maybe if I get the head fixed it will get better mileage. I don't drive it very hard (like I did my 1.6 Rabbit), and it still gets under 40 mpg.
Thanks again,
Greg
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#8
by
Familydiesel
on 13 Jun, 2008 12:37
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Jand, thanks again for the info. You know, the more I think about it, I think I will look into the leak problem on the 1.5 and see if I can get it to run for a while. I appreciate your counsel. I get in a mode to make it nice right away. Your counsel to pay the dues is well heeded.
I don't know if you are interested, but will post when I find out what is causing the leak. Now that I think about it, the oil is pretty clean and it doesn't use any, so it might just be a head or gasket issue. I just wasn't wanting to put any money into the 1.5. But it does run.
Hey bkboostedtruck, thanks for your input also. Both of you have helped me to be more patient and think through fixing the 1.5 until I can get a true turbo together. Maybe if I get the head fixed it will get better mileage. I don't drive it very hard (like I did my 1.6 Rabbit), and it still gets under 40 mpg.
Now I need to round up a steering rack.
Thanks again,
Greg
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#9
by
Familydiesel
on 22 Feb, 2010 06:11
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Well, it has been 1.5 yrs since I posted, but decided to buy and build a 1.6 td. The 1.5 had cylinder issues, and I would have had to spend a lot of money boring, finding oversized pistons and building the 1.5. I found a 1.6 td. without the turbo and exhaust manifold for a good price. I didn't realize it wouild be such a high learning curve to do the research to buy the right turbo for what I wanted to do. I originally bought a k14 turbo from a man associated with this forum, but selling on Samba, and I found it was cracked and the seller knew about it, wasn't completely up front about it, took it back, but stuck me with the shipping. In the end he made $10, and I spent $50 to ship and get nothing. Sour beginning.
Then I found that mine and many other 1.6 tds had the k24, but it spools slow which gives good high end, but not much low/mid range punch. So, I found a good price on a K24 from a guy selling on this forum, but he drug his feet for months without shipping it. I finally had to cut off his paypal to get him to ship it. but it was a tight turbo. While I was waiting for this turbo, someone on this forum had a T2 for sale. I bought it, and he shipped it quickly and it was a good one. Comparable to the smaller K14. Now I was getting somewhere. I bought the rest of the parts I needed from others on this forum and haven't had a problem since in getting what people say and a good timely manner.
In any case, I have rebuilt the 1.6 td and it sits on an engine stand waiting to be installed. I needed a custom return line hose since the t2 had different fittings, but couldn't find a hose that would work. So, I researched again, then found I could not buy what I wanted and no one locally didn't stock any metric hose fittings. I tried to find internet sources, but needed to know what fittings I had. I didn't know how to fighure this out, so scapped the idea and took the turbo and oil pan off the motor and had a hydraulic hose built for it, with silver soldiered American fittings connected to the metric ones, and now I can buy any american hose with standard fittings. Maybe this isn't the best, but it worked for me since I was descperate.
I also am fabing an intercooler setup to keep the boost cool, since I have cracked prechambers, and don't want them to crack further. I had trouble getting new precups, and was assured the cracked ones would be ok. So, I'll see.
If there is interst, I may post some pictures and track my build and some lessons learned as well as alterations.
I have a complete gasser gauge cluster with tach I am installing to my 1980 Pickup. I bought a Dakota Digital signal converter to get the "w" terminal signal to match the gasser tach. I am researching the wiring on my original speedo only stock setup, and the wiring of the gassergauge cluster so that I can use my plug and rearrange the wiring to fit the new cluster. This is my hope, anyway. I am fabbing a front frame brace, and modifying a strut brace to fit the truck also. I want it to corner well, but don't want to burn my motor.
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#10
by
GEE-BEE
on 22 Feb, 2010 08:28
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THERE IS A 1.9 AAZ IN THE NORTHEAST COMPLETE IN THE FOR SALE SECTION 800.00
BUY IT , INSTALL IT
COMPLETE WITH A K14
MODIFY THE BRACKET, GET A 2.5 DOWNPIPE FROM TECHTONICS
DONE,
GB
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#11
by
Rabbit on Roids
on 22 Feb, 2010 08:46
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who told you 1.6 engines get metter mileage? never in my life have i seen a properly timed 1.5 get worse economy than a 1.6. i had an MF blocked 1.6td, and it didnt get even close to the mileage my 1.5 got. didnt have the power either. the 1.5 really shines at higher RPMs. my 1.6's have never really impressed me much. my engine of choice is a 1.5 rotating assy in a turbo block, with a turbo head. but you have to notch the 1.5 pistons to fit in the TD block.
ive only exploded one 1.5 engine, and honestly it was my fault. even with the block as cracked as it was, the engine still ran perfect.
i was on a super tight budget, so i used my 1.5 engine, bolted a VNT 17 turbo, gasser intake, turbo fuel pump and injectors, oil pump, oil filter housing and lines. the engine ive been running since i blew my last block, has been running wonderfully. im sure i could build one of these engines to damn near keep up with any of the hot 1.6's around the board. the only weak point is the block limiting boost. thats where the 1.6 block and head comes into play.
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#12
by
VW Smokr
on 23 Feb, 2010 12:18
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Have been lurking & reading this thread with great interest, because it's moving in directions similar to some I have in mind. I'll have to side with the mileage assessments from Rabbit on Roids. My '79 1.5n.a. Dasher sedan consistently returned 52-54mpg on 65-75mph road trips, A/C frequently in use, and 58.6mpg(!) on a (4 adults & heavily-loaded huge Thule "Pod" on top) trip up to Yosemite, where I was limited to 60-61mph, by serious imbalance on new front tires. Engine speed @ 60 was ~3,000rpm: torque peak for the 1.5n.a.
The '80 Dasher wagon, with the same 1.5n.a. engine & trans was usually about 46-50mpg, for the 65-75mph road trips. IMO aerodynamics played a huge part in that reduction from the sedan's mpg. Although it's a lot lighter than the Dashers, the Caddy/Rabbit pickup, like a station wagon, has crappy aero, relative to a Rabbit sedan... or the Dasher sedan/coupe hatchbacks, Scirocco, etc. Our '77 & '80 Rabbits (1.5n.a.) regularly got 56-58mpg, driving 75-85mph, even including winter trips to the PNW & B.C. with 4-6 pair of skis in an top-mounted open rack.
OTOH frequently at lower road speeds, say 55mph & under, where aerodynamics doesn't play as great a role, the Dasher wagon with its 1.5n.a. averaged 33.6mpg on a 3,500+ mile trip from SoCal through the PNW and back... pulling a trailer, total weight 4660lbs!
Once the wagon engine was swapped for a 1.6n.a. the mileage dropped another 2-4mpg around town, 40-41mpg vs. the 1.5's 42-45mpg. OTOH the 1.6n.a. is much more able to keep up with the crazy 5-95mph morning freeway commuter traffic in SoCal; with the 5-speed installed 3,000rpm is 83mph in 5th gear. Haven't taken it on a road trip with the 1.6n.a. yet.
A well-matched street turbo diesel system is supposed to add fuel mileage, if driven conservatively, but I'll be pleased if it just returns efficiency to the levels attained by the previous 1.5n.a., while having better torque.
J.R.
SoCal