Author Topic: Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l  (Read 153048 times)

Reply #150May 26, 2005, 07:06:52 am

veeman

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #150 on: May 26, 2005, 07:06:52 am »
>>  Installed on the TDI, I noticed that there was a metal heat shield protecting the passenger inner CV boot from the downpipe heat, but I didn't have enough clearance to be able to use a metal heat shield.

Jake...

Not sure what the TDI heat shield looks like in that area, but on my Cabriolet and I believe on one of my rabbits, there was a stock heat shield around the passenger inner CV.  

I believe it was metal on the rabbit and some sort of plastic/fiber material on the cabby.  It bolted to the back of the block with some huge bolts (10mm?) and seemed to be pretty effective.

Any chance you can modify a stock A1 part to fit that space?  I'd imagine space is tight.  I'd be interested in the results...
81 Caddy TD
98 Audi A4 Quattro V6 TDI
83 VW GTI FSP
86 4ktq

Reply #151May 27, 2005, 12:29:15 am

fspGTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #151 on: May 27, 2005, 12:29:15 am »
I got the car running again today, and also now I am driving it around for a little while.  :)  Something in the clutch/bellhousing area made a weird noise right after I started it to begin with, but the noise went away after a little bit of driving - weird.  Anyway, the new clutch is holding much better than the old one ever did, and it feels great.  The car feels much peppier going from a stop now with the lightened flywheel, it is nice.  Basically, this car is already getting really fun to drive!  :)

The way the VNT drives set fixed to 100% open is like driving a turbocharged car without a wastegate.  It seems like the turbo is matched reasonably well to the engine, but it makes it's peak boost only at high RPMs with high loads.  In all other conditions it doesn't put out peak boost, and it does not boost much at low RPMs.  It is sort of a "peaky" setup with the torque climbing as RPMs climb.  It is fun to drive and rev the thing up and the car takes off like a rocket, but is going to be even better when I get the VNT controls set to also make some boost at lower RPMs.  Another interesting thing is that I can see in the boost gauge when the governor pulls back the fueling, it causes the boost to reverse direction, and start dropping, instead of continuing to climb.

Veeman - that is interesting the cabriolets came with a different style of inner CV heat shield.  I'm pretty sure the TDI inner CV heat shield was sheetmetal construction.  But anyway, there really is just not enough room for any shield besides a single ply of header wrap insulation, or I would be worried about it rubbing on the CV boot.  Today after driving the car quite hard and pulling over and popping the hood, I felt the header wrapped part of the downpipe.  I was quite surprised that it did not burn me!  In fact, I was able to touch it (probably not hold my hand there forever, but still, seemed quite cool.)  It seems to do a good job insulating and hopefully should do the trick of keep the heat away from the inner CV boot.  The stainless steel of the downpipe should also help limit the transfer of heat, although the tubing is not all that thick.  I am glad I added the header wrap.

2383 - got any pictures of your servo motor VNT control setup?  That sounds really cool!  :P  A wastegate seems like a really nice thing to have with a VNT turbo because in the event of a VNT control failure, the wastegate would serve as a fail-safe, preventing turbo over-spinning.  Testing of the 100% open vane position is still ongoing, but earlier today I hit 15psi at the peak of a really strong second gear pull.  1st gear seemed over before it begun, and did not muster up anywhere near that much boost.  I still need to test what the boost does at full load and high RPMs in 3rd and 4th gears with the vanes open.

Edit: I started a "want to buy" thread for an external wastegate.  If you might have any pointers on what I should be looking for this application, please check the thread out:
http://www.vwdiesel.net/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=11213
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #152May 27, 2005, 04:48:25 pm

fspGTD

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« Reply #152 on: May 27, 2005, 04:48:25 pm »
I did some testing today...  I verified that I can still reach the upper end of the 15 psi boost gauge at high load/high RPM even with the vanes all the way open!  This is with stock, unmodified 1.6lTD fuel injection pump and settings.  I took some videos during the testing that I will forward to blades for hosting!  :)

By the way, today was a really lousy day to test on the freeways with memorial day traffic; I found it hard to get clean stretches of highway.  Seattle traffic totally sucks but memorial day weekend traffic is the worst of the whole year I think!  :?  But I did enough testing to come to the conclusion that I am going to get an external wastegate.

After testing with the vanes open and with the stock fueling levels, I dialed back the main load adjusting fueling screw by 1/3 of a turn and did some more testing.  With the car noticeably down on power with the fueling limited like that, the turbo still put out lots of boost, although this time at least it peaked in the readable range of my boost gauge, peaking at 12.5-13 psi.  Although I feel this is a reasonable peak boost pressure to run on a daily driver, which must be very reliable, I am not too pleased with the performance after dialing back the fuel.

What I am finding about this VNT turbo is that it simply pumps more air than the IDI diesel motor needs, even with the vanes all the way open.  So to properly install it on an IDI diesel motor with modest boost pressure, it needs something to help slow it down besides VNT control modification: either a wastegate, or maybe turbine blades clipped, or vanes modified to open more than they do standard, etc.

I really need to roll a bead into my boost tube fittings, as I am finding that they keep blowing off.  I found a small amount of oil in the boost tube that must have come out through the compressor bearings/seals.  I am not used to seeing any real amount of oil out of good running 1.6lTD garrett turbos, so I hope this oil doesn't mean the VNT turbo has already started to go south!  :oops:
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #153May 27, 2005, 06:46:42 pm

lord_verminaard

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« Reply #153 on: May 27, 2005, 06:46:42 pm »
That's a bit scary- I've read over and over on TDIclub about people popping VNT-15's all the time, hope it didnt happen to yours!!  Although I think the majority of the failures are turbine shafts snapping, from what I remember they are hollow and people with aggressive tuning chips can accellerate the turbine faster than the little shaft can hold.  I dont remember a lot of people complaning about seals leaking though.  Perhaps the high boost is causing some blow-by into the intake?

To change the subject, based on your driving impressions so far, how do you think the VNT would work with a properly modified injection pump, AKA the "Giles" way?  Do you think boost responce would match the pump output?  Would there be enough boost?  Probably hard to judge when you are still ironing out the boost, but how about some preliminary observations?  ;)

Looking forward to those vids!  

Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49
81 Scirocco 'S -->Soon to be m-TDI
93 Corrado SLC VR6
'86 Golf N/A Diesel  -->Wife's car
1990 Audi CQ
05 New Beetle PD TDI


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Reply #154May 27, 2005, 09:20:04 pm

fspGTD

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« Reply #154 on: May 27, 2005, 09:20:04 pm »
Quote from: "lord_verminaard"
based on your driving impressions so far, how do you think the VNT would work with a properly modified injection pump, AKA the "Giles" way?  Do you think boost responce would match the pump output?  Would there be enough boost?  Probably hard to judge when you are still ironing out the boost, but how about some preliminary observations?  ;)


I think a VNT would work very well with a modded pump that increased fueling at upper RPMs, provided you did something to slow down the compressor.  With pump mods, the problem of uncontrolled boost at high RPMs and loads would be even worse.  You would need something like an external wastegate, "clipped" turbine wheels, etc even more badly than I need it with the stock pump settings!  I would envision a very wide powerband with that setup that would be enormously driveable.  Compared to stock 1.6lTD, the powerband would be broadened both downward in the engine RPMs as well as upward.

Edit: by the way, since the blow-by is currently routed direct to atmosphere, I have ruled it out as a source of the boost tube oiling.  It's gotta be coming from the compressor.

Also, just sent the testing video I recorded earlier today, VNT_Testing.wmv (1.2MB), off to Blades for hosting.  Thanks Blades!  :D
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #155May 29, 2005, 08:17:09 am

Blades

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #155 on: May 29, 2005, 08:17:09 am »

Reply #156May 29, 2005, 08:28:46 pm

TDIMeister

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #156 on: May 29, 2005, 08:28:46 pm »
Clipping the turbine will kill the efficiency.  Don't do it.  Use a wastegate if you must.  Or just enjoy the boost ;)

Reply #157May 30, 2005, 09:06:11 pm

jtanguay

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« Reply #157 on: May 30, 2005, 09:06:11 pm »
couldn't you simply use some sort of BOV that opens at 10-15 psi ? (in conjunction with something to control the vanes...)

I envy you!!!  I thought changing from the K24 to a K14 was awesome, until I saw your VNT!!!

btw, how much do these turbo's cost? are they K03's?  (would be nice to get one)


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Reply #158May 31, 2005, 04:39:20 am

TDIMeister

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« Reply #158 on: May 31, 2005, 04:39:20 am »
A BOV is not ideal for constant use.  That's because it just relieves manifold pressure by bleeding charge to atmosphere.  This increases pumping losses because the turbine still works to compress to complete charge air mass, including that which is bled away.

Wastegate is the best bet if you must.

Reply #159May 31, 2005, 07:06:34 am

2383 GTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #159 on: May 31, 2005, 07:06:34 am »
Yup.  You could use a pop off valve to protect the turbo from reaching too many revs, and they can be had for less than a proper wastegate.  But, venting the charge, as written below by TDIMeister, is very serious.  

I lost power on one of my cars due to a slightly leaking bov.  The adjuster was then set to increase the spring tension, and the power went up by 100 whp whilst on the dyno  :shock: .  Yes, 100 whp.  Any charge leaks, even small, result in large pumping losses.



Quote from: "TDIMeister"
A BOV is not ideal for constant use.  That's because it just relieves manifold pressure by bleeding charge to atmosphere.  This increases pumping losses because the turbine still works to compress to complete charge air mass, including that which is bled away.

Wastegate is the best bet if you must.

Reply #160May 31, 2005, 08:42:47 am

fspGTD

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« Reply #160 on: May 31, 2005, 08:42:47 am »
I've got the factory 1.6lTD blow off valve/intake manifold on the engine, which is not a bad thing to have as a little protection for the engine against VNT malfunction or overboost, etc.  I used it once on my first test drive when I had the vanes all the way closed, and I pulled out into a street to discover a speeding car approaching from behind quickly closing the gap.  I had to put the throttle down farther than I did at other times during that test session, and the boost went off the gauge range and the blow off valve opened.  When the factory 1.6lTD BOV opens, it drops boost pressure down all the way to around 5-7 psi or so, and it takes a long time to reset so the boost starts building again.  It's not really designed for active boost control, just as a safety engine protection vent.

I agree with TDImeister that the wastegate is the way the go, as it will relieve pre-turbine backpressure and lower the rpms of the turbo.  I am now looking to buy a 38mm wastegate, shooting to install it early next week.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #161May 31, 2005, 11:02:45 pm

fspGTD

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« Reply #161 on: May 31, 2005, 11:02:45 pm »
I had some time recently to play with the VNT settings while I am now waiting for the wastegate to arrive.  I am keeping the fueling set at 1/3 turn less than stock 1.6lTD to reduce risk of the boost creeping out of control or doing bad things if the VNT seizes or something before the wastegate gets in.

Previously, when I had the vanes hard-set to all the way open with the fueling reduced, the peak boost was limited to about 12psi (measured at the top of 3rd gear), but the car was not all that powerful off boost, not much torque when the RPMs were low before the boost kicked in.  Well now, I installed my nifty new VNT controller with quicker-reacting spring.  I initially installed it so it rested at about 50% open, which was a noticeable improvement in making the turbo react better at lower RPMs, and so then I went on and adjusted it so it just sits at 0% open with almost zero spring preload.  So basically any pressure applied, even a fraction of one psi, starts the vanes opening, but they rest at full closed when there is absolutely zero pressure.  It ended up putting out just a wee bit of boost at idle, although did not seem to be the full 1/3 of a psi strength it had before when I had the vanes more tightly held closed.  But now it is obvious that the VNT vanes are definitely moving and the controller is trying to regulate the boost pressure, and it seems to be functioning smoothly and reliably.

With the current VNT controller setting, the boost is quicker to jump to 3-4 or so psi with some throttle application at relatively low RPMs, and the boost climbs more as more throttle is applied and as RPMs rise, quickly up to about 7 psi, then slowly creeping with rising RPMs past then (it seems the vanes must be completely open by about that pressure.)  In theory I should be able to see 12psi at the top of third gear at wide open throttle, but due to bad weather and traffic was only able to manage testing the top of 2nd gear, where I saw 10 psi.  At freeway cruising steady at 65, it sees a comfortable and controlled 4-5 psi.  It is managing to turn out decent powerband, torque, and driveability even with the pump dialed back by 1/3 of a turn!  That's because the VNT is giving such a broad boosted powerband and the pump is kicking into "boost pressure / fuel enrichment" mode so often at such a broad RPM range, I reckon.

Oh yeah I also took care of my blown boost tubes problem by flaring the end of the problem hose nipple.

I am noticing when I pull away from stops after sitting idling for a while, there is a small cloud of what looks like oilsmoke left behind.  Not good - I wonder if it's valve stems/seals or if it's from the turbo.  I will continue to monitor.  The good news is that it is clean as can be, never smokes dark diesel smoke at all, whereas before with this was naturally aspirated with the loose timing belt, it had a real smoking problem and we probably would not have even noticed any oil smoke if it was present!  I don't know what to do there, probably will just wait it out and drive it more and see if the problem is stabilized or if it worsens, and monitor oil consumption.

I can't wait to get the wastegate on there and pump the fueling back up to stock 1.6lTD levels... I really have a feeling that that this thing is going to rock!  :twisted:

PS - one more test for me to try this week before the wastegate arrives... I'd like to try increasing the VNT pre-load by 2-3psi so it doesn't lift off it's full closed position until a little bit longer.  Ideally this won't raise the peak boost pressure but will make it reach there quicker and open up even more power and torque at the low to mid RPMs, making the car even more driveable.  :P
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #162June 01, 2005, 06:04:59 am

TDIMeister

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« Reply #162 on: June 01, 2005, 06:04:59 am »
The powerband of the engine in spite of the 1/3-turn reduced fuelling is partially on account of the fact that the VNT-15 is quite a bit more efficient than anything installed in the factory 1.6-era.

Reply #163June 01, 2005, 09:28:44 am

jtanguay

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« Reply #163 on: June 01, 2005, 09:28:44 am »
hey just thought I'd add this site I found online.  Near the bottom it has an animation of how the vanes work!

http://www.technologie-entwicklung.de/Gasturbines/VNT15-Turbo/body_vnt15-turbo.html


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Reply #164June 02, 2005, 02:19:54 pm

92A2VWJTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #164 on: June 02, 2005, 02:19:54 pm »
Nice find jtanguay! That certainly clears up any confusion in relation to how Jake's VNT is being controlled. :P