Author Topic: Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l  (Read 153023 times)

Reply #135May 24, 2005, 10:49:23 am

Smog

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #135 on: May 24, 2005, 10:49:23 am »
Quote from: "jackbombay"
Quote from: "fspGTD"
what I suspect is that the exhaust airflow through the vanes is applying a rotational force on the vanes and preventing them from opening like they did on my test bench (completely open by 15psi...
 

  Could you use a softer spring for resistance in th can to end up with fully open vanes on the bench by 6 PSI?


just control the original vnt actuator with a mechanical boost valve and a restrictor. the vnt will be fully closed until you hit the setpoint.
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Reply #136May 24, 2005, 05:23:46 pm

DVST8R

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« Reply #136 on: May 24, 2005, 05:23:46 pm »
Sounds like you just need a boost gauge with a higher reading :wink:
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Reply #137May 24, 2005, 11:34:16 pm

Blades

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #137 on: May 24, 2005, 11:34:16 pm »
All I need now is a new video in my mailbox  :twisted:

Reply #138May 25, 2005, 01:18:52 am

fspGTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #138 on: May 25, 2005, 01:18:52 am »
Thanks - you guys are great.  So many different responses and opinions - each of them are actually good ideas too.

I did some testing today I wanted to share.  All the results are not yet in, because the clutch started slipping from all the torque and well, I can't really test it at full load when the clutch is slipping like that.  But anyway, I can tell you about the results before the clutch slipped.

I found I was able to easily adjust the VNT linkage as well as remove the VNT can from the turbocharger without having to remove anything else.  I can get to it all just leaning over the engine and reaching behind the intake manifold; and the VNT linkage is just right there.  It really couldn't be much easier to access!  :D

For my first test, I wanted to see what the turbo response would be like if I just did quick and dirty adjustment to open the vanes more, without removing the VNT controller can or doing anything more involved with it.  Due to limited number of threads on my VNT controller rod, I was only able to open the vanes by about 2.1mm (out of a total of 4.7mm travel), while maintaining a reasonable amount of thread engagement.  That means the VNT would now rest at about 45% open instead of all the way closed.  This was all I could easily get the vanes open by just doing an adjustment on the threaded adjuster.  I took it for a spin in the "vanes 45% open at rest" configuration...  First thing I noticed, was that the boost pressure at idle was gone.  Driving around, I found that I still had to limit throttle and RPMs as the vanes were not adequately controlled, although the turbo was significantly less hyper-active than previous test with the vanes pre-set to all the way closed at rest.  (By the way, by all the way closed, I mean that the vane adjuster lever is sitting on the untouched factory-set stop.)  On the freeway now, I could reach a 65mph cruising speed, but just barely without the boost spiking out of control with the slightest twitch of the throttle foot.  I found boost pressure at a steady 65mph cruise to be about 7 psi, but it didn't take much to get it to jump to 10, and it would jump past that very easily if I wasn't watching the gauge or thinking about the throttle.  Because of this, I had to keep speeds limited to 65mph.  I would also generally characterize the low engine RPM turbo boost response in this vane configuration as being close to a stock 1.6lTD, but still more responsive, with a little bit quicker boost build-up happening at lower RPM.

For the next test, I really wanted to see what it was like with the vanes all the way open.  I got creative and completely unscrewed the vane control linkage, screwed in a bolt in place, hinged the works up near the turbo oil supply line and secured it by the bolt using a small hose clamp to the oil supply line in the vanes 100% open position.  This was obviously just a quick and dirty jerry-rigging.  Turbo response was much slower now, and it took more load and RPM to build boost now.  I would say it was still close to, but now was less responsive than a factory 1.6lTD in terms of boost versus RPM response for lower engine RPMs.  Also generally, there now would not be any boost pressure when the throttle was lifted or when loads were low.  Cruising at even 65mph now happened at zero psi boost.  But, pressure would build when the foot went down.  For the first time I was able to try put some torque down without the overactive VNT threatening to overspin the turbo as a result of doing so.  Trying to put down high loads was when I found the clutch in this configuration started to slip.  It generally took about 5-7 psi at near full load to make the clutch slip.  That limited testing to see how much higher the boost climbed, although I seem to recall it getting close to 10 psi.  So anyway, I've really got to get the clutch replaced now before I can complete this test and see how much the boost builds at wide open throttle with the vanes totally open.  I am a bit surprised they do not regulate boost pressure like a wastegate.  I was sort of expecting there to be zero psi (or something very close to that) at all times with the vanes 100% open, but apparently this hyper-active VNT turbo just doesn't work like out old wastegated turbos in that regard.  The TDI VNT is apparently built to boost!  --but, even with the vanes all the way open?  :?  I guess the VNT control problem could have a solutuion, as long as the peak boost pressure at full loads with the vanes all the way open isn't too high!  I'll have to wait to get a new clutch to try.

If the turbo overboosts even with the vanes all the way open, one band-aid solution might be to limit engine torque (reduce fueling).  That kind of sucks though!  Another band-aid solution would be to install a post-turbine restriction in the exhaust (which after fabricating that large free-flowing exhaust system, I would really hate to do!)  A better solution would be to install an external wastegate to run in conjunction with the VNT as boost control.  There is a wonderful spot to mount it too; the EGR flange!  An external wastegate would be extra time, $, and stuff taking up space under the hood, however.
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #139May 25, 2005, 01:27:11 am

vwmike

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #139 on: May 25, 2005, 01:27:11 am »
I really think changing the spring is your best bet. Obviously the spring pressure is too high to allow adequate travel given the boost range you're working in.

Reply #140May 25, 2005, 05:26:00 am

2383 GTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #140 on: May 25, 2005, 05:26:00 am »
Jake,

The VNT will make lots of boost all the time, as you have found out.  Very quiet idle and low speed operation also defined the VNT, albeit for amazing turbine and compressor sounds!  About 6 years ago, I fitted a slightly larger VNT to my 2.4L 6 motor with similar results as you; I measured 1.35 psi at idle with a manometer with the vanes fully closed.  5 psi came at ~2.5K rpms, and at 3K rpms nearly 10 psi was developed, all no load!  Using an electronic peak/hold boost controller I designed, I was able to largely control the amount of boost to approximately 21 psi.  In addition, I had to adjust the tension rod quite a bit, and change the displacement angle of the actuator with respect to the vane control lever.  City driving was amazing; instant "throttle" response, and massive torque.  The car simply squirted through traffic at nearly any engine speed.  

The problem is that you do not always want maximum boost and nearly always closed vanes.  At steady state highway cruise conditions, the boost would hover around 11 psi, instantly shooting to 20+ with the slightest deviation in the fuelling lever.  AIT was unnecessarily high (higher than with the previous turbo) and EGT was up as well.  All bad for good specific fuel consumption.  Greater angles of the vane lever yielded lower AIT and EGT, but response suffered.  

Several iterations later, I designed a circuit which included a differentiator that measured the rate of change in the throttle angle, coupled with feedback from manifold pressure, and AIT.  For low speed operation in traffic for instance, in general, the vanes were closed most of the time.  However, if traffic opened up the circuit would go into a cruise mode, where the vanes would nearly fully open for low pumping losses, low AIT, and lower EGT.  Mileage was way up as well, it was discovered.  If, for example, I needed to pass, etc. on the highway, the circuit would determine the rate of change in throttle, and instantly go into high response mode, closing the vanes, and furthermore, controlling the boost at higher engine revs.  Based on qualitative and quantitative analysis, this appeared to be the best way to getting the most out of the VNT device.

Hope this helps  8)

Reply #141May 25, 2005, 05:57:40 am

lord_verminaard

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #141 on: May 25, 2005, 05:57:40 am »
Quote from: "2383 GTD"
Several iterations later, I designed a circuit which included a differentiator that measured the rate of change in the throttle angle, coupled with feedback from manifold pressure, and AIT.


WOW!  Want to patent that device? ;)  That is incredible.  Where did you pick up the components for it, from automotive sources or elsewhere?

This is proof why I spend more time on this message board than any other.  :)

Brendan
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Reply #142May 25, 2005, 07:36:43 am

jackbombay

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« Reply #142 on: May 25, 2005, 07:36:43 am »
Quote from: "2383 GTD"
Several iterations later, I designed a circuit which included a differentiator that measured the rate of change in the throttle angle, coupled with feedback from manifold pressure, and AIT.


   That sounds great, and wow, what a first post!

Reply #143May 25, 2005, 07:47:32 am

DVST8R

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« Reply #143 on: May 25, 2005, 07:47:32 am »
[Hijack]2383 GTD, Welcome back long time no post!

All of your posts on the old board mysterioulsy disapeared. Good to have you back. You will have to give a run down of your latest mod state of the volvo. Albeit in a differnt thread  :wink: [/hijack]

Ahh clutch slip from to much torque, words I love to hear. What are you planing on using for a replacment clutch?
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Reply #144May 25, 2005, 10:13:18 am

Staley

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #144 on: May 25, 2005, 10:13:18 am »
WHAT is wrong with this board..
who would think that anyone would really be addicted to a
freakin diesel board! LOL
I find myself checking for new posts like 20 times a day
and eagerly wait for Jakes new posts on his car

at least I know that I am not alone here :)
Houston's APR Distributor
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Reply #145May 25, 2005, 10:15:05 am

DVST8R

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« Reply #145 on: May 25, 2005, 10:15:05 am »
Quote from: "Staley"
WHAT is wrong with this board..
who would think that anyone would really be addicted to a
freakin diesel board! LOL
I find myself checking for new posts like 20 times a day
and eagerly wait for Jakes new posts on his car

at least I know that I am not alone here :)


Amen Brother.
The Brett of the board...



The Dark Side of Beauty.[/i]

Reply #146May 25, 2005, 10:17:28 am

RedRotors

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #146 on: May 25, 2005, 10:17:28 am »
Quote from: "Staley"
WHAT is wrong with this board..
who would think that anyone would really be addicted to a
freakin diesel board! LOL
I find myself checking for new posts like 20 times a day
and eagerly wait for Jakes new posts on his car

at least I know that I am not alone here :)


Don't worry, you'r not alone..  :lol:

Marc/
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91' VW Golf Country
94' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 5 spds, 191's, 215hp injectors, SB Clutch
03' Dodge RAM 2500, 4x4, Cummins, 6 spds, MBPR 4 ", custom intake, Smarty Jr

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-> www.hflox.com <-

Reply #147May 26, 2005, 03:55:54 am

fspGTD

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Project Potential... variable vane turbo on 1.6l
« Reply #147 on: May 26, 2005, 03:55:54 am »
2383 - good to see you around!  Wow, didn't realize you did an IDI VNT so long ago!  :)  Wow, 22 psi, that is some pretty healthy boost.  Did you leave the vanes as being vacuum controlled when you adapted the electronic controls to it?  Also, do you recall any testing of how the fuel economy actually changed as a result of running the vanes more open while cruising on the freeway vs "closed vane cruising / hyperactive boost" mode?  I'm wondering how big of a difference it might make.

Guys: I made some progress today on the VNT control front.  Since flipping over the diaphgram inside the VNT can and putting the spring on the other side, the spring has been put under a much higher pre-load than it had originally with the vacuum control orientation.  This is because the outer half of the VNT control can had a recess that interfered with movement of the metal structure of the diaphgram after it has been flipped over.  You can see the recess well in this picture - it is the area around where the hose nipple is installed:


So to make the can more adjustable so it can react to smaller boost pressure signals, I flattened out the recess in the end of the outer can half to reduce the spring pre-load.  I did this by pressing the recess in the outer can half more flat with a vice:


result:


The VNT controller now has much less spring pre-load and also has a longer range of travel and so is much more adjustable.  It can start moving now with less than 1 psi of pressure in the can.  Before when the spring had a higher pre-load, it took 6-7 psi pressure in the can before the rod would start moving.

Here are the VNT can parts I now have available to play with, including the 3 different lengths of shafts (at left, the ruler plus the stock riveted-on shaft are shown for reference):


I assembled it with the longest shaft (previously I used the medium length one.)  I can't wait to get the car back up and running with it's new clutch because I'll be ready for some more VNT testing and experimenting!  :twisted:

Here is what the latest iteration of the VNT can now looks like:


PS - I found with advise from Garrett tech support on how to adapt their VNT-25 (left over from Dodge Shelby CSX production) to use in other aftermarket/motorsports applications.  Of interest is that they propose that manual boost pressure on the VNT can can be a viable means of controlling the VNT.  They also mention a wastegate can be used in conjunction to the vanes to further regulate boost pressure.  http://www.thedodgegarage.com/turbo_vnt.html
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #148May 26, 2005, 04:12:47 am

fspGTD

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« Reply #148 on: May 26, 2005, 04:12:47 am »
DVST8R - I am in the process of installing a new 210mm clutch and matching 8v pressure plate with a brand new flywheel I just today got back from having lightened:


Luckily this flywheel didn't have any balancing marks on it's outer weight ring, so I skipped having it balanced after the weight ring was peeled off.  Since the material was removed evenly from the outer weight ring only, which ran true and was turned on a lathe by the factory to start with, it should remain as well balanced as it was by the factory if the metal is uniform in density.  Jerry, my machinist who I trust and who has also lightened a lot of VW flywheels, thought it would work.  I sure hope he is right!  Here is a shot of the action in the machine shop earlier today:


I still have to connect the motor mounts and drive shafts to get the car driving again, but the transmission is back mated to the motor with the new clutch and flywheel goodies bolted up.  Looks like a bad clutch push rod bushing and seal are what took out the old clutch... it seemed to have had good usable meat still left on the disc, but it was slipping apparently because of oil contamination.  In addition to changing the push rod bushing and seal, I also changed the engine rear main seal and tranny mainshaft seal while I was in there.  And I took the opportunity while the transmission was out to pressure wash it at the coin-op car wash.   It is so nice to have the grease-cake eradicated.  :)

While I had the transmission out and the passenger driveshaft was hanging down and out of the way, I header wrapped the downpipe where it gets close to the inner CV boot.  I was worried about the heat from the downpipe that passes close to that CV boot from accelerating the aging of the rubber.  Installed on the TDI, I noticed that there was a metal heat shield protecting the passenger inner CV boot from the downpipe heat, but I didn't have enough clearance to be able to use a metal heat shield.  Hopefully this header wrap will do the trick of allowing the rubber CV boot to last and also keeping the CV joint cool!
Jake Russell
'81 VW Rabbit GTD Autocrosser 1.6lTD, SCCA FSP Class
Dieselicious Turbocharger Upgrade/Rebuild Kits

Reply #149May 26, 2005, 07:02:55 am

2383 GTD

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« Reply #149 on: May 26, 2005, 07:02:55 am »
Thanks guys, it is good to be back.

Brendan, thanks for the kind words.  Basically, the design was a solution to the problem of properly controlling the VNT.  The components were from scientific companies, that I was able to source when I worked at NIST.  I had to do all the design work, as none of my professors knew what the hell I was talking about... they were too into research.

Jake, the controls were pneumatic, but later servo controlled :twisted:
You will also find, perhaps even now, that even with the vanes fully open and enough fuel, they will no longer control peak boost.  Later, after more fuelling increases, I had to use an external WG coupled with the vane controls.  The WG is normally obligatory with gas engines that use the VNT.

It really depends on the relationship between the turbo and the VE of your motor, but with the vanes tightly closed, fuel economy did suffer.  When you get fully up and running, try some tests with the vanes, and see how much it effects mileage, and report back to us.

To all, look for more posts about my car, and some pretty major developments I've made with it with regard to the power output, and injection pump modifications.  I also have some big plans coming up as well.

Some already have known this for awhile, but it turns out that someone hacked into my account on the old board.  I created the username on this board, but wanted hang back to see if I was able to find out who did it. Very uncool, as I had a lot of good info in the posts.  


Quote from: "lord_verminaard"
Quote from: "2383 GTD"
Several iterations later, I designed a circuit which included a differentiator that measured the rate of change in the throttle angle, coupled with feedback from manifold pressure, and AIT.


WOW!  Want to patent that device? ;)  That is incredible.  Where did you pick up the components for it, from automotive sources or elsewhere?

This is proof why I spend more time on this message board than any other.  :)

Brendan
84 Scirocco 8v
00 Camaro L36 M49