WAIC Intercooler schematic

[Gizmoman]

Here is the plan for my Water to air intercooler. . .


The tank is one of those 1 quart cheap plastic jobs from the local FLAPS. I epoxied a 5/8 barb into it to feed the pump. What are your thoughts on using a "T" on the return (instead of going back to the tank)?

Any comments appreciated.

[libbydiesel]

I would want to have a second fitting on the tank in order to include the thermal mass of that coolant and reduce peak coolant temps.  I also wonder which would return the lower temps, either running the laminova cores parallel vs. series counterflow to intake air.  Possibly some testing once it's running would be in order. 

[CRSMP5]

aaaahhhhhh no....

rember the discussion on the behind plate bottle?

you want a honda/gm style bottle/cap..

the water/air ic i have to play with on the vr6t has a honda style rad with cap on it... uses the "cheap" style tank you got.. as its just a succk from push to tank like behindthe plate...

that tank will crack/break with pressure... you would need to engineer a vw style bottle, ford/madza/dodge use them too that can hold pressure... for different shapes..

my jack rabbit came with a top waterneck adapter to fit one of the gm style caps to the system.. i would rig that to be the higest point of the system.. then you can use a bottle like you have.. its a monroso aftermarket casting on it.. but i cannot tell if its welded on to or not.. they mounted rad way low on jackrabbit.. how the purged the air out of the top hose..

you will be able to use the plate access too hell maybe t that bottle to feed them both for overflow?

[Gizmoman]

Thanks Libby, I was trying to get by without adding another fitting to the tank (which is under the back seat in the van) and is higher than everything related. It's only about a quart, so I didn't figure it could add much heat sink.

How hot should I expect? Based on what CRSMP5 is suggesting, I could have boiling water . If that's true I have to re-think the whole concept.

[Gizmoman]

I would want to have a second fitting on the tank in order to include the thermal mass of that coolant and reduce peak coolant temps.  I also wonder which would return the lower temps, either running the laminova cores parallel vs. series counterflow to intake air.  Possibly some testing once it's running would be in order.  

IIRC, the laminova folks recommend parallel if possible.

Any idea how hot I should expect? I figured I would need to deal with 150 F or less - not boiling.

As for the thermal mass, I figure if the radiator/heat exchanger (with fan) can't remove the heat, all the volume in the world will eventually heat up. The tanks is just to insure there is no air in the system and it makes checking it easier. That said, the "T" might not let all the air out so going back to the tank would still be a good idea.

[libbydiesel]

At 20psi of boost I've seen pre-intercooler temps over 200°F.

[Gizmoman]

At 20psi of boost I've seen pre-intercooler temps over 200°F.

Hmm, I'm shooting for no more than 150 max - even still, that's higher than I thought.
Plastic tank is going to take a hit for sure. Darn, now I'll need to tig-weld an aluminum one and deal with high pressures as well

Here's the one I have now

[Gizmoman]

These plastic fittings aint gonna cut it either

[CRSMP5]

theory.. same temp as antifreeze.. the big metal thing (the cooler is pretty stout that im playing with and all aluminum, so will catch all bay heat and asorb) is in the engine bay asorbing the same heat the coolent is..  expect is to run the same temp..

think of egt,s also and how they will heat soak a head and raise the temps in the head temps vs block temps....

what ever you do make sure no one can get burned... id rig in a vw coolent bottle.. put it in big square box with drain at bottom..

[Gizmoman]

theory.. same temp as antifreeze.. the big metal thing (the cooler is pretty stout that im playing with and all aluminum, so will catch all bay heat and asorb) is in the engine bay asorbing the same heat the coolent is..  expect is to run the same temp..

think of egt,s also and how they will heat soak a head and raise the temps in the head temps vs block temps....

what ever you do make sure no one can get burned... id rig in a vw coolent bottle.. put it in big square box with drain at bottom..

Just so were all clear - this system is not part of my water cooling system and is not connected to it in any way. The radiator in the diagram is a small unit (see photo above).
What I am trying to accomplish is to cool the hot compressed air from the turbo just before it enters the intake. I doubt it will ever get cooler than ambient but if I can bring it down from 150F to 90F that would be great.

I will add anti-freeze (pentofrost) but only to keep it from freezing. It should never boil or the radiator I have selected is way too small.

[CRSMP5]

intercooler is big chunk of aluminum mounted close to turbo..... the water to air one i have to play with weighs 2x as much as air to air...

air to air in open...

your is snuggled into the bay of a vanagon... it in its self is a heatsink... thiunk of the heat level you get out from under the cover after a spirited drive..

so yes i woul d100% think it will need to cool effectivily to cool its inner gas vs the surrounding air of the bay... but the bay will effect its overall temp too..

2nd thing to rember.. your only under boost at speed.. so the little fans only need to work in stopped traffic to help keep it to those temos.. cause if you honestly think that little fan will help at 65mph.. i cannot see it.. air flow will be much more then it can make.. 

id honestly think of it as its own cooling system... but with your set up to add a 2nd rad is easy..how the watercooled stuff helps most..  couple small rads easy to add in vs 1 big one..

and yes i know its a 2nd system.. i am trying to decide how to do the rad fan, water fan set up as this rad = ac condensor in size.. so fits the roddo rad like a ac condensor on a mk2 would.. all i gotta do is cut a nice hole in the core support for its cap.. and small overflow off to the side..

so me i have this front air mass to cool it.. but ok.. fan.. if rad one on i twill draw thru the cooler too.. but the fan will blow the hot air on the cooler too.. easy fix with a duct.. but no way the fan can do better cooling then direct air..

the rad will transfer heat to the cooler rad... much like ac does to coolent system..

cars with ac vs non ac.. load vs no load.. vs temps around town and on road.. that intercooler will be antifreeze temp at min on a hot day... so expect it to boil.. brass.. good bottles so on.. this kit i have came with a honda style cap... real pia to get on/off.. but that tells me to expect normal cooling system function.. just when really cool out i bet it runs alot better then a hot day..

[Gizmoman]

Thanks CRSMP5, I get what you are saying - basically that I should expect temps of the IC water to be close to or the same as the water in the engine.

Here's my IC. . .




The two cores are 90% in the air flow and not touching the aluminum as they are centered by the o-rings once the caps are on.
The only thing that will cause them to heat up will be the compressor air (I don't know how hot that could get). According to Libby, it could be as high as 200F. I will be running 15 psi of boost so I doubt they will go much higher than 200.

The water runs through the center and also the small holes around the OD of the cores. Air is forced through gazillions of fins on the core OD. This is done through two very close fitting tubes inside the housing which have in/out slots their entire length - the cores fit inside these tubes. I have blocked off all other flow paths and the air must pass through the fins.

I guess if there were no water running through it, sure it would get as hot as everything else in the engine bay. I just don't see how it could ever get to boiling temps unless the pump failed (which it could I suppose). If the pump and small radiator fan is running all the time It seems I should be able to keep the temps down easily.

If the water gets to boiling point (212F), then the whole concept isn't working at all because that's what the air would be as well.
I'm no thermo-dynamics engineer but boiling water in a WAIC doesn't sound right.

I will also be monitoring post IC temps with a temp probe when if I get it running.

[CRSMP5]

well my worry time for you...

go into grocery store on a 90*f day... in there 20 min... ho much heat has soaked into the parts in the bay as it sits there with no airflow..

when you restart it.. it will have to cool off that heat soak.. i garentee.. it will be at fan shut off coolent temp... hell im thinking audi design, timmer and all for the pump for it to keep both cooling systems pumping coolent after shut off for 5-10 min... hell maybe wire in the goofy sensor like a 88ish golf with temp probe in the injector area of gasser in you area between head and ic you made so the fans and pumps cycle till the actual ambient temp around the head cools down..

for mine im going to add in a 2nd rad fan switch to the awic set up so when either gets to 82*c the main fan kicks in.. using a pusher fan on the awic imo waste and honestly i want it to warm up to a "set temp" per say too.. having its fan run as the engine runs would be silly on cold days and imo hard to keep it in tune too..

so yes... plan for it to get hot.. no reason to burn anyone.. do it right with ideas of growth.. not damb i may have to reingeneer that... till you get it going you will not know its temps... but no way heat soak will not be a issue for your project.. i am worrieed bout that in light weight vr6t car...

next.. my kubvan, towing jack rabbit this past madness... it needs a real oil cooler on a 75*f day.. no way im at 4000lbs and had issue of oil/water temps.. egts were 950ish.. but oilwill heat up the stock oill cooler enough to heat the antifreeze and then neither cool right.. a 30 min stop would net me 45-55 min of drive time til the antifreeze would rebuild to boiing and not cool any more... these hills nothing vs out west and had no issue on 35-55f days... just that 20*f in ambiet temps is enough to crew with heat soak.. and far less load via wight vs cali.. jackrabbit stripped now vs then and kubvan not near as full of crap..

[Gizmoman]

well my worry time for you...

No need to worry for me - That's why I posted the question and I do appreciate your view - it does make sense with the closed up bay sitting in the 100F parking lot after a quick run.
I'll build a tank/system that can hold the pressure of boiling water. But I still hope when I'm heading down the road, all this work will net intake air temps well below what they were without it.

[CRSMP5]

compressed air via turbo.. less temps then without it... it was still more then antifreeze levels before it was added or even created.. its whole goal is to drop the charged pressure air temp much like ac... so yes no matter what it will help lots... just think you overlooked at the temps it operates...

if egt 1200*f.. whats the charge air? i bet 200-600*f..