pump timing HELP!!! - page 1 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• pump timing HELP!!! by redbaron on 16 Jan, 2007 07:45
• Hello all just in the process of installing a gtd engine (1.6) into my mk1 caddy. It wont seem to start at the moment. I changed the cambelt and the engine mount (had to remove pump). does the pump work over 360 degrees or more, i used a locking pin to time it up but could i be out with the pump timing? (i.e 360degrees)
  
  Thanks!
• #1 by jtanguay on 16 Jan, 2007 08:03
• did you follow all the instructions? as in lock the cam, and the IP???
  
  start by explaining in detail what you have done.  did you read the manual?
• #2 by burn_your_money on 16 Jan, 2007 08:35
• the pump can not be out 360, it can be out 180 though, depending on what style pulley you have.
  
  Make sure the pump is not off 1 tooth. It's very easy for it to get off 1 tooth if the pump pulley pin has any play in it
• #3 by Vincent Waldon on 16 Jan, 2007 09:30
• If you've replaced the pump then the whole system will take some time to prime... several minutes of sustained cranking at least.
  
  Crack the fittings slightly on several of the injectors and confirm that fuel leaks out when you crank... if not you need to keep priming or start looking for another issue.
  
  Some people detach the return hose from the pump and suck until fuel appears... another way to fill the pump if that is the issue.
• #4 by redbaron on 17 Jan, 2007 14:31
• Cheers guys it was just the pump taking fecking ages to prime. She now runs but smokes white and runs dog rough at low rpms (i.e. tickover) when up in the turbo shes fine and better when warm. Injector pump 1 tooth out? (which way), or dodgy injector?
  
  Clouds of smoke on start-up, reluctant to start. No smoke when up and running in turbo range.
  
   :roll:
• #5 by Vincent Waldon on 17 Jan, 2007 14:45
• Good to hear you got it started... but it sounds like you're not out of the woods yet.
  
  Timing / injectors / compression... since you just did the belt it's fresh in your mind and I'd be inclined to check all the timing.  Don't forget the part where you knock the camshaft pulley loose and ensure it's perfectly aligned with the pump and TDC... TDC tends to wander a bit so I check it frequently while I'm doing a belt.   Confirm the belt is exactly in the right spot, time the cam and the pump,  rotate the engine a couple of revolutions, and then confirm your timing settings again, using the dial gauge as described in the Bentley.
  
  In my mind there really are no shortcuts here and once you get it right you'll start right up with no smoke (assuming injectors and compression are fine).
  
  And yes, 1 tooth either way will make a huge difference... again, well worth checking.... but I can't understate how important it is to do all the timing steps, even when just changing a belt.
  
  
  Vince
• #6 by jtanguay on 17 Jan, 2007 16:19
• yea you'd be surprised at how much fuel the pump will take... the best bet for priming the pump would be to put a vacuum on the return line and just suck her in! or a lift pump
• #7 by tylernt on 17 Jan, 2007 20:44
• Quote

  She now runs but smokes white and runs dog rough at low rpms (i.e. tickover)

  White smoke usually means the timing is too far advanced. It can also lead to a rough idle because the fuel is combusting before the piston can come past TDC, so you're trying to push down on a vertical connecting rod.
• #8 by redbaron on 18 Jan, 2007 08:47
• Right this is really starting to piss me off now, just spent ages setting the timing marks up, most of the time once tensioned the marks go out of alignment. Started it up, exactly the same. check marks again and they are out again.
  
  WHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHY??
  
  It splutters and coughs out smoke still, runs really smooth if you give it some throttle with no smoke at all, and it gets better as it warms up.
  
  Still thinking timing? I just cant get it to all line up, all the time. Might try running some injector cleaner through it, see if it helps.
  
   :evil:  :evil:
• #9 by tylernt on 18 Jan, 2007 09:11
• Did you retime the pump to Bentley spec using the dial gauge and adapter tools?
• #10 by Vincent Waldon on 18 Jan, 2007 09:21
• If you locked the IP pump with the special tool and locked the camshaft with the special tool then the only thing that can drift is TDC and putting the engine in gear can help.
  
  If you're trying to do the belt without the locking tools and the dial gauge then you're going to fight it forever and it will probably never be right... full stop !!  Ain't no shortcuts unfortunately!!!
• #11 by tylernt on 18 Jan, 2007 09:37
• Quote

  If you're trying to do the belt without the locking tools and the dial gauge then you're going to fight it forever and it will probably never be right... full stop !!  Ain't no shortcuts unfortunately!!!

  Yes, only the flywheel mark and the camshaft can be timed by marks. The pump has a mark on the sprocket and on the pump, but these normally do not line up at TDC. Only the dial gauge will tell you when the pump is in time.
  
  Some experts have timed the pump by ear, but unless you are a master diesel mechanic who does it for a living, it'll be easier and safer to do it with the gauge.
  
  Since we suspect that you are too advanced because of the white smoke, mark the relationship of the pump to the bracket. Then loosen the 4 13mm pump bolts and rotate the top of the pump away from the engine until your marks are 3mm apart. This will retard your injection timing a lot. Then tighten her down and see if that helps. If it does, your problem is timing related.
• #12 by redbaron on 18 Jan, 2007 10:40
• Ah ah, i have the timing tools, made by draper. a Camshaft locking tool that allows the camshaft to rotate slightly when tightening the camshaft sprocket and a pump locking pin so loose you wouldnt believe.
  
  I dont have a pump timing gauge type thing. Alls ive been doing is lining up the marks on the pump pulley to housing and the flywheel mark on the 'box.
  
  Might have to take it somewhere tomorrow then.
  
  Will i damage it by driving it?
  
   :roll:
• #13 by Vincent Waldon on 18 Jan, 2007 11:05
• You probably won't damage it by driving it (unless it's so far out of whack that valves are hitting the pistons) but it's going to fight you relentlessly until you set the timing perfectly.  This means things like shimming the cam locking tool so that it doesn't rotate at all, finding a better tool to lock the IP pump solid, and most importantly a dial gauge and adapter so that you can set the pump timing... just lining up the timing mark on the pump pulley might get you running but the timing itself is set to within 1/1000 of an inch by rotating the actual pump on its mounting bracket.... without a dial gauge you haven't been able to do this step either !
  
  Unfortuantely there are no shortcuts... on a diesel the timing is all on that one system of sprockets.  At this point I think you're probably on the right track to find a good mechanic to bring 'er up to snuff for you... or get the Bentley service manual, all the tools, and a hour or so of your time.
• #14 by tylernt on 18 Jan, 2007 11:14
• Driving it too far advanced is like lugging the engine. It will put stress on your wrist pins and shell bearings, but I think you'll be fine if you retard it a bit as I described and drive it to a mechanic.