1.6lTD long-runner intake manifold - page 4 - IDI Engine - VWDiesel.net The IDI, TDI, and mTDI source.

• #45 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 11 Nov, 2005 17:41
• Quote from: "fspGTD"

  Although this is a good new idea, I'm going to continue down the custom intake manifold route.

  ~
  
  I wasn't trying to discourage you in anyway. I wanted to know if it was a possible solution. For someone without the tools and skills to tackle the custom manifold route, it's a good solution. By doing it yourself you're sure of ending up with the results you wanted.
  
  Nice work man!
• #46 by fspGTD on 13 Nov, 2005 19:27
• Update:
  The drill pressing is now done.  Although it needs a lot of filing and die grinding to clean up, you can now make out the manifold's basic shape:
  
  
  
  I also used the drill press to punch the runners out to 3/4" initially.  I might try using a die grinder to take them out the rest of the way and make their final intended curved shape.
  
• #47 by Master ACiD on 14 Nov, 2005 02:20
• thats looking real good there.
• #48 by Black Smokin' Diesel on 14 Nov, 2005 04:46
• Nice work. This thing is going to be quite impressive when done!
• #49 by fspGTD on 15 Nov, 2005 20:46
• Thanks guys!  I did some hand filing and die grinding on the intake adapter piece and it's really coming along.  I've still got a ways to go on hogging out the ports, but the carbide burr is definitely the right tool for this job.
  
  I also tried out some new flux-core welding rod I got today and I really like the stuff.  On my first try using it I welded two cast aluminum intake manifold scrap pieces together with great fusion.
• #50 by DVST8R on 15 Nov, 2005 21:22
• Way to go. Sounds like you are getting a good handle on Al. welding, cast is the worst Al. to weld, if you can weld it you can weld pretty much anything.
  
  Remember when welding Al. "cleanlieness is next to godliness" esspitaily old cast Al. as cast is quite pourous it tends to pick up anything around it contaminating it and making it a bugger to weld, when I weld anything old and cast I spend a ton of time first wire brushing it then using a good chemical cleaner, then back to somemore wirebrushing, and the an oxideremovingacid to help reomve the oxide just b4 welding. Then with a TIG with balance contorol I move way more to cleaning, and turn the heat up some. I know that you are using oxyacetlene to weld, so I would do all of the above, and then use the flux paste you have as well as the flux-cored rods, and you should get through the worst of the worst. Post up some pics of the welds.
  
  My spelling is terrible tonight  :oops:
• #51 by moTthediesel on 16 Nov, 2005 07:26
• Jake,
  I've been reading this thread with interest because I'm trying to fit an A2 long runner manifold onto the Quantum engine in my TurboTub  
  I'm using a VNT15, and as I think you found with your Dad's Rabbit, there is an interferance problem with the EGR (and/or wastegate) flange. I have cut  one of the threaded bosses off the bottom of the manifold, and now I'm real close to clearing, but still not quite there.
  What I'm considering now is to space out the exhaust manifold/turbo from the head maybe 1/4", as I think that will give me the clearance I need. I'm thinking I could either cut 1/4" copper plate spacers with my plasma cutter, or get an old exhaust manifold, cut off the flanges and have them surface ground to make them square and flat. Of course I'd need to fit longer studs in the head either way.
  Which do you think would be best from a structural/sealing standpoint?
  moT
• #52 by fspGTD on 16 Nov, 2005 07:47
• DVST8R: Thanks for the tips.  I was actually shocked how well the flux-core rod worked, which tells me a lot of my previous problems must have been caused by inadequate and/or inconsistent fluxing.  This rod is amazing... on that first test I mentioned, I only prepped one area very lightly and quickly by hand scrubbing the oxides off the surface with a brush and I left another area totally original, old cast oxidized.  I did apply some supplemental flux across the whole surface I was welding on for good measure.  The prepped area definitely welded a lot better, and prepping it more could only have helped.  But I was shocked I was even able to weld the completely unprepped area together!  Wasn't that easy, but I found like welding stainless, I was able to "scratch" the surface to help get the the metals to flow and join.  I will definitely spend a lot more time prepping on any real welding project I do, this was just an experiment to see how the new rod worked.  Getting good fusion was so much easier with the right amount of flux being where it needs to be.  When I built up some filler material on the surface, I no longer had problems getting it to "sink in" and flow out.
  
  My latest aluminum welding problem is that sometimes when the flux gets thick right where I'm welding, it glows so brightly I can't tell where the molten puddle is!  On my test this only happened once when I ran a bead towards another area I already welded, but I had to stop when it happened.  They make special welding lenses to block out this "sodium flare", which is I think may be the last piece of new equipment I'll need before being ready to tackle the real projects.
  
  Oh, my test piece of aluminum, the weld really isn't too pretty.  Heat management is really tricky with this stuff, so I didn't run the prettiest bead.  It turned out to be a much more difficult weld than I planned because it was one small thin piece joining to a thick piece.  I didn't melt through anywhere though (right at the beginning, I was very close though!)  I'll practice up a little more.
  
  PS - I might have to try those chemical cleaners you mentioned.
  
  moTthediesel: VNT-15 and a long-runner intake... :shock: going for a little bit of torque, eh?
  
  I was able to get an unmodified A2 manifold to fit the VNT-15, no manifold spacer required.  Pics are in the VNT 1.6 diesel thread.  I removed one of the studs from the EGR flange and replaced it with a countersunk allenhead cap screw that I rounded the shoulder partially off of to make additional clearance, but it all fit bolted up with the VNT-15 and the unmodified A2 manifold to a 1.6 liter head.  A specially contoured EGR block off plate (which I made in stainless) was a key ingredient.  Even made an intake manifold support brace.  I didn't end up using any of it.  I held on to the pieces and they aren't doing much sitting in my garage.  You don't want to know how many hours I have into them.  If you could use them for your project (also could part with the A2 intake, which you might want since it's been tested to fit, and also has the mounting flange to bolt up the brace), send me an IM.
  
  Also, although I never tried test fitting an A1 intake manifold to a VNT-15, it might fit easier than the A2 so might be worth considering.  It's got shorter runners though.
• #53 by veeman on 16 Nov, 2005 07:58
• Jake...   looks great so far!  I'm really interested to see how the intake affects your engine's powerband.  Will you be using your G-tech again to do the same sort of testing?  I'm assuming you have the plots from before the work began.
  
  >>I also used the drill press to punch the runners out to 3/4" initially. I might try using a die grinder to take them out the rest of the way and make their final intended curved shape.
  
  What type of stone/material do you like to use?  I've been experimenting with the ports on a manifold and the gray stone I'm using gets very clogged pretty quickly when I'm using the die grinder.
  
  It's frustrating because I can only grind for a minute or two, then I have to find a way to scrape off the Al that cakes the stone.  I tried using my wirewheel / grinder, but that erodes the stone and only works to a point...  What's the key when working with aluminum?
• #54 by fspGTD on 16 Nov, 2005 08:54
• Quote from: "veeman"

  the gray stone I'm using gets very clogged pretty quickly when I'm using the die grinder.

  
  
  A stone bit (like the grinding wheel material) works OK on ferrous metals, but like you've found it's not the correct tool for aluminum, because it will get loaded up in a hurry.  For similar reasons you can't use a grinding wheel on aluminum or a metal-cutoff wheel on aluminum.
  
  For removing lots of material, a carbide burr also known as a rotary file (a good source of these is on ebay, from "naburs") will eat through that aluminum like you wouldn't belive, especially if it's got the course threads per inch style with the long continuous flutes (no cross-cuts), which is specifically made for "fast cutting" aluminum.  Beeswax in the cutter fillets will help any type of carbide burr or other cutter (including a drillbit) keep the aluminum from sticking to it.  The course-cut burr, especially if it's a smaller diameter, will leave kind of a rough texture though, and may also be hard to control as the teeth catch on the material it will try and jump around and "dance"... (so, use both hands spaced far apart on the die grinder and short style burr) also for ports it needs to be finished off afterwards with something that uses sandpaper grit, like a flap wheel (comforms to surfaces well), or a cartridge roll (doesn't conform well, but are cheaper and cut material quicker I think).  Flapper wheels (which is simply a 1/4" shaft with a slot cut in the end with a strip of emery cloth stuck through it and rolled around it) are another option some use for final finishing, but I haven't tried them.  The course-grit cartridge rolls can hog out the aluminum effectively as well, and are smoother and so easier to control than a rotary burr and get a good finish on.  Tip for when you're working on ports: to get the perfect good "shape" more effortlessly, try and find a tool with a larger diameter (but small enough to fit comfortably inside).
  
  My engine builder just uses cartridge rolls for port gasket matching and the results look great.  He starts with rough grit then switches to fine for finish.  I'm planning to buy some myself, I just got a mandrel, now just need to find a supply of the rolls.
• #55 by lord_verminaard on 16 Nov, 2005 18:05
• Heh, I found that out too when grinding out my intake on my 8v gasser to fit the Audi 5000 Throttle Body.  Had to use a lot of lube and keep the speed slow.  Took a LONG time! I had a nice porting kit from Standard Abrasives, I used it to port/polish my iron heads for my Camaro (that I never got around to installing) and the stone bits worked really well for the iron- and the flap-wheels worked really well for smoothing out the ports and making a nice final finish on everything.  I found I could get the combustion chambers polished to a mirror shine with the "cross-buffs", they are a sponge-like bit with abrasive medium on the "crosses".  Kinda hard to explain, but the instructions that came with the kit said to use a little wd-40 to keep the medium clean, so I did and I was really impressed.  The kit I used was the "deluxe porting kit" http://store.summitracing.com/egnsearch.asp?Ntt=porting+kit&N=115+301466&D=301466&Ntk=KeywordSearch
  
  and it comes with a lot of cartridge rolls.  They arent the best quality rolls but the kit comes with so many I had more than enough to do 2 V-6 iron heads with plenty left over.  The rest of the components are decent quality though, but they didnt come with any carbide bits.  Oh well.  
  
  It was a good learning experience anyway.  
  
  Brendan
  84 Scirocco 8v
  00 Camaro L36 M49
• #56 by RabbitGTDguy on 16 Nov, 2005 19:25
• Well...this looks sorta familar. I've provided some pics of my IDI TD setup when I had just finished rebuilding it and also added my own "plenum style" intake manifold to the bunch. It was crude, but was effective using the 1.8 JH Rabbit GTI intake manifold which I then port matched to the head as well as port matching the head. I also grinding the portion off the rear of the intake manifold that allowed it to attach to the gassers exhaust manifold for added strength. Thing is...the setup wouldn't allow for the stock TD style exhaust manifold which has already been outlined here and we went the route of a custom log style, center/back mounted exhaust manifold to complete the system. It did help...never did dyno it for "exact" power increasing but with the fueling modications and 25psi + the propane system I had made I did notice some benefits to the setup. Flow I believe was improved as well as transfer of the charge cooled air ...the feeling is "smooth" I noticed that my highway "boost" was down about 2psi  after the intake manifold switch as well as the EGT's by about 100 degrees.  Power wise...eh...didn't notice much. I'll be running a similar setup on the TDI. Very nice job so far though Jake...here are some pics of what i did...rough stuff, and now with all this talk i kinda miss the IDI TD i had sometimes  luckily to have the 79 now...not TD, but reminsant non the less...
  
  Roughing and mocking right after I port matched
  
  
  Detail
  
  
  The combination thanks to greasecar on the exhaust manifold
  
  
  Finished product
  
  
  Installed with the rebuilt motor...
  
  
  The ugliest part of the whole deal....the "intake flange" i crafted to work in place of where the TB used to be. This time around I'm modifying the boost return section of a G60 throttle body to accomodate my needs on the m-TDI
  
  
  Have lots of pics around of the old setup if anyone is interested...including the intake manifold, etc...  I like the idea of what your doing though...long runner...and utlizing the old style manifold...very cool.
  
  Joe
• #57 by fspGTD on 16 Nov, 2005 23:00
• Hey Joe I remember that exhaust manifold made by greasecar Justin in the early days of the forum... didn't realize or remember that you coupled it with a long-runner manifold though.  Nice work.  Did you aluminum weld the EGR and cold start bung?  Looks interesting.  Cutting / fileing / grinding that EGR piping off the back of my A1 manifold was a lot of work but I got it off of there (still need the plug the hole on the plenum from it though, but that's why I'm practicing my aluminum welding   ).
  
  When I'm done with this and have the Rabbit back up and running, I am definitely planning on scientifically testing the performance impact, will use an RPM-sensing G-tech.  I'm in a competitive racing class, and I want to know if power is hurt anywhere in the RPM band, or helped anywhere, and by how much compared to a stock 1.6lTD manifold.  I will for sure need to take a new baseline test with the stock 1.6lTD manifold, since many other variables have changed since my last G-tech testing and all I want to test is the difference the manifold makes.
  
  I had some success today in finding tools needed to complete this project.  I found when running my air compressor cycling it on and off often, I noticed the cylinder head temps get kind of hot (too hot to touch).  Well to help that situation I picked up from boeing surplus a $5 special electric fan and mounted that to my air compressors air shroud, set it up to blow air into the shroud to help out the crappy internal fan keep the compressor cool.  I can leave the electric fan on all the time so it will help the compressor cool down even in between cycles.  The electric fan works great!
  
  I also found a local source of cartridge rolls and bought an array of them, and have just started experimenting with those... the carbide burrs definitely hog out aluminum quicker than even the coursest cartridge roll I tried (60 grit).  My local engine builder uses 60 grit cartridge rolls for the rough port cutting and 80 grit for finishing so I got both of those grits.  I also picked up some 120 grit to give polishing with it a try.  The cartridge rolls leave a nice smooth finish that is way better looking than the carbide burr marks.
  
  The abraisve supply store I went too had the cross-buffs (about $3 a piece in the 1" diameter) and I almost bought some to try out, but they didn't have any mandrels to go with them so I won't try them this time.  They looked pretty interesting though.  Probably handy for final polishing odd shapes.  So anyway, I've got plenty of air tool toys to play around with now...
• #58 by RabbitGTDguy on 17 Nov, 2005 03:16
• Jake,
  
  Yeah, I think at the time it was summer which I found myself finishing the car up and also out on the road more instead of in on the forums. Though...building, we were here all the time it seemed...advice, suggestions, etc.
  Yeap, thats Justins manifold. I let it go with the TD motor...probably shouldn't have but the guy that bought the motor thought that he could use it possibly sometime plus I went with a different design PSI cast ''back side" manifold for the TDI. I think velocity will be better with this setup. Plus, i was restricted to the keystone flange for the turbo on the homemade manifold. Short of building a new collector for it and using a standard T3 flange I would have had to use a stock turbo.
  As far as the intake manifold. I had that on pretty quick that winter of the build. It took alot of grinding with a bigger grinder and pneumatics and then filling in the extra holes via a friend that could aluminum weld... he is the one that also helped me build the air/water intercooler I'm using for the TDI. The only skill I still don't have that I'd like to is the ability/resources to weld on my own. At home I have a 80gal compressor, all the tools for it... but only a torch and an ARC welder... that'll change soon. Looking into my own MIG setup to learn on.
  So... i think thats it. Maybe more later...gotta go to work now
  
  Joe
• #59 by fspGTD on 18 Nov, 2005 10:10
• Intake manifold fabrication update:
  Did some SERIOUS die grinding... spewing aluiminum shavings everywhere.  Sharp little guys that can stick in your clothes too!  Did a lot of "hogging open" in the ports.  The outside shape is also almost done now.  Looks nice after being finished with a cartridge roll.  Not even close to done with the ports yet though.
  
  One problem I have is the angle of the runners as they flow from the top piece to the adapter piece is at an angle of 22 degrees.  To avoid an overly abrupt turn, I want to add some material to the upper piece's runners so they start turning higher up so it will be a more gradual radius of a transition.  I'm consider welding to the aluminum just on the inside of the flange to build up material here, but I have a vision of horror of the runner flange melting through while doing this and falling away.  Maybe if I heat, add some filler, and let it cool, then repeat, I could build up material that way.  Those welding glasses shielding out the sodium flare sure would be nice.
  
  I also test fitted the intake manifold to a cylinder head with K24 turbo installed, and verified an interference problem with the K24 turbo compressor housing.  After about 1/8" of clearancing on the outside of the #1 runner at the flange where upper piece joins lower piece, it looks like I can fix it with a 1/8" shim on the turbo mounting flange, which if I made out of copper would work like a gasket so that's my plan.  I just hope the Garrett turbo fits.