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Water injection on a TD
by
shakakan
on 05 Oct, 2004 17:17
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I just had a thought after reading through all the posts on this board. Noone has mentioned water injection in pursuit of more power. While my experience with these cars is limited, I know good power gains can be gained in competitive pulling tractors. I don't imagine a system would be that hard to fab up. Just a thought.
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#1
by
dieselpower
on 05 Oct, 2004 17:22
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ok i might be wrong but i thought water injection was used on gas cars to lower intake temps to reduce detonation. because deisels dont inject the fuel till its time to burn there isnt detonation unless you rig up a system to work with a propane injection system
anyway just my $.02
by the way if im wrong about anything plz tell me
mark
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#2
by
shakakan
on 05 Oct, 2004 18:01
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Water did two things, Cooled intake charge Cooler=denser+more fuel =more power Second part, which I am not sure is true, under the instense pressure in the cylinder, water is broken into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen has the same effect as propane, and oxygen allows for much more thorough combustion. This should generate further power.
My experience is with an International 60xx series tractor that is heavily modified for pulling. Propane injection is not allowed in the class we pull in, but we do use water injection, and there is a substantial increase in power with injection.
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#3
by
dieselpower
on 05 Oct, 2004 21:16
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hmm.
i never thought of it that way. it shouldn't be that hard to do. i was actually designing one for my turbo 16v project that never happened. anyway i heard of people just spraying a stream of water right on the compressor blade and the spinning of it atomizes the water. anyway my plan was to use parts from a gas engine, fuel pump and injector and atomized the water before the turbo so it get even better atomized when it goes through it. anyway there would be more to it than that but thats the basis of it. the only problem is corosion form the water inside the pump and injector. but besides that i think it would work pretty good. my dads in the montreal and toronto area for the next 2 weeks so i cant get him to help me build it. if u have any suggestion id be very apreciative.
mark
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#4
by
dieselpower
on 05 Oct, 2004 21:18
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one more question. is that international 60xx a diesel or what kinda fuel does it run on?
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#5
by
shakakan
on 05 Oct, 2004 22:24
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Definately a diesel. A gas tractor is like a diesel weed eater, it just don't work!
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#6
by
Dr. Diesel
on 06 Oct, 2004 01:16
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I once heard about a racer who poured hydrogen peroxide into his gas tank claiming it increased power by splitting apart during combustion. I mixed hydrogen peroxide and gas together in a glass jar, and they separated immediately. Shake it up, and they'd separate immediately. I didn't pour any in my gas tank. If it's true about them splitting during diesel engine combustion, then hydrogen peroxide has (i think) a couple more O's than water. Any chemists here have any insight on this?
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#7
by
QuickTD
on 06 Oct, 2004 06:34
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Hydrogen peroxide readily breaks down into steam and oxygen when exposed to a catalyst, heated above 80ºC, shaken etc. The kind you get in the store (3% with water) is pretty much useless though. You need the 80-90% rocket fuel stuff, which is fairly dangerous and must be handled with great care. If injected into the intake, the peroxide would likely decompose during compression and cause engine damage. It would need to be mixed with the fuel using some kind of co-solvent, but then you would have a shock sensitive explosive. It might not be a good idea to pass this mix through a hot, high pressure injection pump.
Other oxygenates might work better. Nitromethane is very safe and could likely be blended with diesel. It might require a cosolvent like isopropyl alcohol. Ethers and alcohols themselves are also good candidates. These would be a bit hard on injection pump internals but might work for racing use.
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#8
by
VWRacer
on 06 Oct, 2004 06:59
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Water did two things, Cooled intake charge Cooler=denser+more fuel =more power Second part, which I am not sure is true, under the instense pressure in the cylinder, water is broken into hydrogen and oxygen. Hydrogen has the same effect as propane, and oxygen allows for much more thorough combustion. This should generate further power.
Water does act as a charge coolant in a turbocharged diesel, but it does not break down into hydrogen and oxygen in the cylinders. The action of water in a cylinder depends on whether it is injected as a liquid or as a gas (in the chemical sense). If the water is injected sufficiently far upstream of the intake valve to fully evaporate, it enters the cylinder as a gas. This technique cools the intake charge but displaces air (and hence oxygen). Nonetheless, it is the prefered technique for turbocharged gasoline engines since their primary aim is to reduce or delay detonation. OTOH, if the water is injected close to the intake valve and is ingested as a liquid (tiny droplets), it displaces far less air. The water then evaporates as the piston ascends in the cylinder, again cooling the charge somewhat, but more importantly converting to steam. When water converts to steam at normal atmospheric pressure it displaces something over 1500 times its volume of air. For example, 1 cc of liquid water converts to 1500+ cc of steam. In a cylinder this steam increases the cylinder pressure and hence the torque of the compression stroke. That is the power increase you feel in your tractor, shakakan.
Stan
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#9
by
dieselpower
on 06 Oct, 2004 18:28
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quicktd,
are you saying that just like dumping methanol in the tank with the diesel would work or do you mean put methanol in the water injection system??
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#10
by
Dr. Diesel
on 06 Oct, 2004 23:14
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Bruce, You're going to have to grow a long grey beard and start wearing only loincloths, cuz I'm going to start calling you Wise Old Man. (hm.. WOman for short.. heehee!)
[ For example, 1 cc of liquid water converts to 1500+ cc of steam. In a cylinder this steam increases the cylinder pressure and hence the torque of the compression stroke. That is the power increase you feel in your tractor, shakakan.
Stan
AHA!! thankyou Stan.
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#11
by
QuickTD
on 07 Oct, 2004 05:53
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quicktd,
are you saying that just like dumping methanol in the tank with the diesel would work or do you mean put methanol in the water injection system??
No, methanol will not mix well with diesel and is highly corrosive to aluminum so it would be hard on the pump. Isopropyl will mix to some degree. I believe powerservice "Diesel 911" de-icer is mostly isopropyl alcohol. I would encourage you to test before trying and be prepared to lose an injection pump or 2 to "science". The gains from alcohols will be very minimal but might be worthwhile in an all out drag car. You have to remember that the energy density of most alcohols is much lower than diesel so injected quantity would have to be increased when running such a blend. Most alchohols are mildly corrosive to aluminum, so the mix would need to be flushed from the pump before shutting the car down.
TDIRS has injected methanol directly into the intake with good success. I would be surprised if its detonation threshold (octane) were higher than propane so, like propane, it may not work well in indirect injection diesels.
I'd like to get a bucket of nitromethane and play around with that. It's a good oxygenate and improves power in almost any engine it is used in. Years ago bardahl sold cans of the stuff blended with a cosolvent for mixing with gasoline. Not sure if this stuff is still available.
Nitromethane/methanol blends (model aircraft fuel) are not mixable with petroleum fuels. Cheaters in motorcycle racing used this to their advantage. They would "float" gasoline above a nitro/alcohol mix in their tanks, like a bar shooter. The carbs had to be jetted for the nitro/alcohol mix, so the engines ran horribly once it was used up. By this time though, they were well in front of the pack. At the end of the race all that was left in the tank was legal race gas...
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#12
by
dieselpower
on 07 Oct, 2004 16:57
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i was reading on a ford idi powerstroke forum of someone that had a water injection system useing windshield washer fluid. he injected it straight into the intake manifold and said theres was about a 200 degree drop in egt's and an increase in power. what is in windsheild washer fluid because i dont think i would wantt hat running through my car's engine, well actually i wouldn't really care because my engine needs to be replaced anyway.
mark
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#13
by
QuickTD
on 07 Oct, 2004 17:09
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Windshield washer fluid consists of methanol, water, detergents/surfactants and dye. It probably wouldn't hurt anything if it went into the cylinder as a vapor. I would worry about oil breakdown from the detergents if it made it to the cylinders as a liquid though.
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#14
by
VWRacer
on 07 Oct, 2004 19:00
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Bruce, You're going to have to grow a long grey beard and start wearing only loincloths, cuz I'm going to start calling you Wise Old Man. (hm.. WOman for short.. heehee!)
Who's Bruce...?
